Help needed amidst all the confusion...

[voidhawk]

Hi everyone,

Was hoping I could get some informed feedback on my current weight training programme and lifestyle. I know its asking a lot, but you guys seem to know more than most books I've read on the topic! :-D

I'm a 24 year old former athlete (runner), height 5'10, weigth 10.5 stones. I've an exceedingly fast metabolic rate, and a body fat ratio of 7.5%.

I'm looking to bulk up my upper body muscle - despite not running for over 5 years or so, my legs have maintained their muscle mass, to the point where it actually looks quite freaky given the disparity between upper and lower body. (Rugby players legs, arms made of string... :-) )

I've altered my diet recently to the following pattern :

i) Bowl of nut + bran cereal immediately after waking
ii) Tuna sandwhich or sausage roll at about 10:30
iii) chicken sandwhich or pasta at about 13:30 / 14:00
iv) pasta + meat around 18:00 / 19:00

I generally drink only water, and snack on fruit throughout the day.

The problem is, there is a *vast* amount of confusing, differing opinions on how you go about gaining muscle. I'm not expecting massive gains in weeks, but do want to know if I'm doing the right thing at all!

a) I usually do 20 minutes of intense cardio before doing weights - however, I've read this is a bad idea, due to depletion of specific energy sources, and that at best I should do 5 minutes of warm up running just to get blood flowing?

b) Some trainers recommend large amounts of low weight reps, whilst others push for low number high weight regimes. For example, one trainer has told me to do 5, then 10, then 15, then 20, then 15 / 10 /5 reps at a very low weight to build muscle in one session.
Another has said the exact opposite - 6 lifts of a very heavy weight, at my upper limit, per session.

Obviously quite confusing! Which is best for muscle gain?

c) How long should I be leaving between exercising certain muscle groups? At the moment, its about 2 days, and I'm still slightly sore when I return. should I be leaving it till the soreness has completely gone?

d) At the moment, I generally exercise all my upper body muscles at the same time in one trip to the gym - i.e. do a series of exercises on my Biceps, then my triceps, back, shoulders etc. Should I be sticking to one particular set of muscles per trip, and heavily pushing them, or continue working my entire upper body each trip?

At the moment, I'm just using machines, but will start doing freestyle weights shortly when I'm slightly more confident with them... :-)

Thanks very much for any advice and help - I tried using the seach function, but the amount of info that contradicted each other was overwhelming!

Cheers,

Kristian

[JawD]

Hi, I`ll give my thoughts on a few things, although hopefully some of the vastly more experienced people will chip in later! Like you I`m on the snowball of fitness. I call it a snowball because I started interested and just get more and more and more interested in the subject. Starting with diet / nutrition then the effects of cardio and weights and so on. It is a hugely interesting subject and I can spend hours just sitting here reading! Anyway...

I've altered my diet recently to the following pattern :

i) Bowl of nut + bran cereal immediately after waking
ii) Tuna sandwhich or sausage roll at about 10:30
iii) chicken sandwhich or pasta at about 13:30 / 14:00
iv) pasta + meat around 18:00 / 19:00

I generally drink only water, and snack on fruit throughout the day.

Watch out for sausage rolls (high in saturated fat) and chicken sandwich. Although the chicken is great, I often find of the shelf sandwiches are also high in saturated fat due to excessive mayo. I`d think your basic need is Protien to promote muscle growth. Your tuna and chicken will help but I`m guessing you dont get enough in a day. Some people say you need 1g per 1lb of body weight. I would say though to add protien to your first meal. I do this in the way of a protien shake.

a) I usually do 20 minutes of intense cardio before doing weights - however, I've read this is a bad idea, due to depletion of specific energy sources, and that at best I should do 5 minutes of warm up running just to get blood flowing?

Whatever you priority is should be done first. I`d agree that at best do a 5min warm up then weights.

b) Some trainers recommend large amounts of low weight reps, whilst others push for low number high weight regimes. For example, one trainer has told me to do 5, then 10, then 15, then 20, then 15 / 10 /5 reps at a very low weight to build muscle in one session.
Another has said the exact opposite - 6 lifts of a very heavy weight, at my upper limit, per session.

My understanding is low weight / high rep will help with muscle endurance, high weight / low rep with muscle strength / size. So, if its bulk you want I would stick to high weight and low reps. Depending on the muscle, I would do maybe 4 sets at 6 reps.

c) How long should I be leaving between exercising certain muscle groups? At the moment, its about 2 days, and I'm still slightly sore when I return. should I be leaving it till the soreness has completely gone?

I usually leave around 3 days to let the muscle recover (sometimes 2 days).

d) At the moment, I generally exercise all my upper body muscles at the same time in one trip to the gym - i.e. do a series of exercises on my Biceps, then my triceps, back, shoulders etc. Should I be sticking to one particular set of muscles per trip, and heavily pushing them, or continue working my entire upper body each trip?

Alot of variation here. You can do it the way you are now, or you can split it as I do. You should limit your session lifting to around 45 - 60 mins. I found that to do my whole upper body how I wanted needed much more than this, hence the split.

If I can recommend some good websites for you to read on (as well as this one, look at cursors comments forum)

http://www.exrx.net
http://www.bodyforlife.com/

Good Luck :thumbup:

[ebon00]

Originally Posted by voidhawk

a) I usually do 20 minutes of intense cardio before doing weights - however, I've read this is a bad idea, due to depletion of specific energy sources, and that at best I should do 5 minutes of warm up running just to get blood flowing?

Short general warmup (5 min sounds good) and a short specific warmup is all you need. If you feel like doing cardio do it after your weight session or at a totally unrelated session.

Originally Posted by voidhawk

b) Which is best for muscle gain?

Depends on the individual, training frequency, training style, whether you rotate your intensity or not... Basically, you'll have to find out for yourself. Some people swear by lots of sets of low reps while others are adamant that 3 high-rep sets are all you need.

Originally Posted by voidhawk

c) How long should I be leaving between exercising certain muscle groups? At the moment, its about 2 days, and I'm still slightly sore when I return. should I be leaving it till the soreness has completely gone?

Depends on your recovery levels, training style etc. Soreness is not an indicator of anything other than damage. It can be good or bad damage though but the difference is really not discernible. Most people would say that 2 days is just right while others will tell you to rest 7 days between bodypart workouts. Usually they'll prescribe different workouts as well. I personally like working each bodypart twice a week.

Originally Posted by voidhawk

d) Should I be sticking to one particular set of muscles per trip, and heavily pushing them, or continue working my entire upper body each trip?

First off, you should NEVER start out working your smallest bodypart in any session. You always work big to small. If you start out by doing biceps and triceps your chest and back work will suffer. (If you're not sure why then it's time to look at some anatomy books. You'll learn a lot.) Second, depends on what kind of workout you do.

Starting to get the picture? There are precious few absolutes in weight training. Most of the time we'll be lucky if we can agree on one thing about a workout. But there is some manner of general agreement: work the basics, work hard, eat well, rest well.

[voidhawk]

Thanks for the advice guys!

Okay, planned changes :

a) Add some form of protein to my breakfast, either a shake or something involving eggs... :-)

b) Change to doing a warm up cardio session of about 5 minutes before weight training, but nothing more and not to stress point.

c) going to try the "short number, heavy weights" method for 3 to 6 months, see what the results are.

Workout plan :

i)Monday - chest / shoulders
ii) Tuesday - cardio /abs / rowing
iii) Wednesday - Biceps / Triceps / Forearms
iv)Thursday - cardio / abs / rowing
v) Friday - chest / shoulders
vi) Saturday - SLEEPING! :-D
vii) Sunday - Biceps / triceps / forearms

As advised, will be working the chest and back muscles out a lot more than my forearms!

I know there are no leg exercises in their, but all the trainers I've seen have advised not to do any - they really are that out of proportion... :-(

Should allow for 2 / 3 days rest between each major workout, which hopefully will be enough.

I plan on also doing a bit of swimming and rowing on the cardio days, and generally fit some situps / crunches in every other day.

Any further advice or tips welcome, thanks very much!

Kristian

P.S.The worse part about all of this is the cooking for the diet... :-( No more pizza's!

[ricohelms]

GOOD RESPONSES GUYS!!! :thumbup:


Void,
Your goal is to add mass to your lean upper body right? I would like to see a bit more food in your daily intake. It seems a bit low. As for not doing any leg workout I would not say that is a good thing. I have found that keeping my legs involved has helped my growth everywhere else. You don't have to hit them with the same intensity but you should keep them in the mix. Hit the weights hard and heavy as you can stand for growth. Its all a bit of a guessing game cause every persons body reacts differently. Mine has responded to heavy ass weight with reps ranging from 4-6. I do 3 to 4 different excersises for each muscle group. I never ever hit the muscle again if its still sore. Your routine will be hindered and you won't get the most out of that workout.

[ebon00]

Originally Posted by voidhawk

As advised, will be working the chest and back muscles out a lot more than my forearms!

That's good... but I don't see back listed in your split so you might want to double-check. Or is rowing a synonym for back these days... :confused:

[voidhawk]

Sorry Ebon - when I list chest, I mean that to cover front and back - will be working both areas in those sessions. My mistake...

The rowing is mostly for fun, and isn't going to be serious hard work exercise... :-)

BTW, Since starting a more rigerous workout, my appetite has gone through the roof - definitely going to have to start eating more Ricohelms, if only to stop my stomach embarressing me at meetings!

RicoHelms, when you say you do 4 to 6 reps, using 3 or 4 exercises per muslce group, do you mean you do about 12 reps in total per muscle group, or that the 4 reps consisits of 3 or 4 different exercises? Sorry, haven't fully got the grasp of the terminology yet, despite all the reading...

(When you say muscle group, do you mean upper arms for example, or more specific, like Biceps or Triceps?)

Cheers, and thanks for the continuing help everyone, you've been a great help!

Kristian

[voidhawk]

Just in reply to the diet / nutrition side of things (not trying to derail the thread!), have just used Fitda.com to get a rough calculation of the a typical days nutrition.

Apparently, a standard days meals such as today consist of the followig ratio's :

30 g of fat (18%)
222g of Carbs (54%)
105g of Protein (28%)

From what I gather, I should be eating my own body weight (70 or so lb) in grammes of protein, so seem to be well up on that figure!

Without trying to get the thread shifted to the Diet section - does this look okay for a standard day to build muscle?

Thanks again,

Kristian

[JawD]

Well, if you`re 10.5 Stone, thats 147lb or 67kg. If your BF% is 7.5% that means you have a lean body mass of 136lb. So, based on what you are saying you should eat 136g of Protien per day which will account for 544 Cals. So, I`d say you need a little more protien.

Oh, if you were 70lb, that would be 5 Stone and fit in my shoe

(1 Stone = 14 lbs = 6.4kg ish)

[voidhawk]

Doh. Curse the Imperial scale... :-)

(I thought I'd got it wrong somewhere along the line).

Okay, definitely need to add more protein to my diet at least then. I suspect I'll have to start taking a supplment in the morning with my breakfast, and fitting in a final meal of some sorts around 10 ish before I sleep.

BTW, did my first session today of low reps / heavy weights, working on chest & back as advised. After 3 reps of 6, was beginning to crumble, and on the 4th set of reps failed after about 3 - is that about the rate I should be looking to push myself to? (I didn't collapse with pain or anything, simply couldn't move the weights at all! :-) )

I've been doing one rep of 6 on one muscle set (i.e. pectorals), then a rep on another muscle, cycling through the exercises and then restarting on the pectorals. IS this the best way to do it, or should I be doing all 3 / 4 set of reps at once on that muscle group? (I honestly don't think I'm capable of this mind you at the moment, I'd collapse... :-D )

As always, thanks for you help and advice everyone!

Kristian

[JawD]

There are so many different way I often dont think its a case of what is right or wrong, but what works for you. I`m also in the stage of playing with my routine until I get it right, until it feels right. What I would say is try not to isolate muscle groups at this ealy stage, do exercises that work more than one muscle. For instance, Seated Leg curls will do your hams, but Squats will do Hams and Glutes and back (though I do both!). With regard to how much, that also depends. I spent a year doing three days a week with 3 sets of 8 on most things. But, now I`m pushing myself harder yet have reduced to 3 x 6 or even 2 x 6 on some things.

I good indication would be how you feel. Try not to work more than an hour.