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Old 12-Jun-03, 08:54 PM   #1
Maxima
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HST, are we all wrong? REALLY INTERESTING!


I was in another forum talking about maximum intensity and how it is the key to getting better gains. All research that I have read has stated that it is not the number of times you go to the gym, it is not how long you stay in the gym, but how hard you work once you get in the gym that determines your progress. Just a couple of refferences:

- Feigenbaum and Pollock, 1997
- ACSM, 1998
- Tremblay, A. Simoneau, J. and Bouchard, C. 1994

Then I get a post from NateDogg that say's maximum intensity is not reccomended for muscle gains and he posts a link to a fitness sight like this one, but with a whole different theory (thank you very much for the link Nate, really interesting stuff.)

The sight refferes to a training style called HST (Hypertrophy Specific Training) and from what I am seeing it really goes against a lot of what people are being told.

Let me first start off by saying that I am not trying to refute any of this because they do have researched refferences to go along with all of the thinking behind the program. I have not really checked out the refferenes so I cannot comment on the validity but man I was just blown away by the thinking while running all over the sight.

Common things they refute:
• A muscle must be fully recovered before you should train it again.
• You should not train a muscle that is sore (DOMS, not injury).
• You must never train a muscle on consecutive days. (i.e. train the same muscle everyday)
• The concept of "Overtraining" in general as it applies to bodybuilding.
• You must train with maximum "intensity" to elicit significant muscle growth.
• Training to failure every set and/or workout
• Changing exercises to "confuse" the muscle.

The program consists of a full body routine three times per week M-W-F. Daily exercises are kept the same, and stresses that you choose compund movements, example would be 2 exercises for legs, 2 for chest, 2 for back, 1 for traps, 3 for shoulders, 1 for biceps, 1 for calfs and 1 for abs.

This program lasts for 8 weeks. (This next part is more complicated than it sounds so keep reading on) The first two weeks you do 15 reps, the next two weeks you do 10 reps, the next two weeks you do 5 reps, and the last five weeks you do negatives and drop sets. Then you take 9-14 days off and repeat the cycle.

However this is not all cut and dry, you do not use your max weight that you can do for each of the repition ranges for each workout, but rather for only the last one.

Here is how it works:
First choose your exercises that your going to do for each of the body parts as listed above.

Next test your rep maxes for each of the catagories (15,10,5) you will take 1 week to do this, once you have decided on all the lifts.

On Monday, for each lift find the weight that you can do 15 reps for, but not quite hit failure (just when your movement starts slowing down.) Repeat this for each lift (the split shown above) & you will have your 15RM weights.

On Wednesday, do the same thing as above, but find the weight that you can do about 10 times.

Friday, where you will once again do the same thing but for the 5 rep max.

You will now take 9-14 days off for Strategic Deconditioning (SD).

After your SD, you will start your routine (cycle). At that point, you will begin the "load progression" described below. You will take 6 workouts (2 weeks) to work up to that 15 rep max (RM) weight in each lift. You'll then continue your progression up to your 10 rep max (RM) and ultimately up to your 5 RM weights.

For example:
I'll only use 1 exercise, squats, but you will have several others for your full-body workout you'll be doing. Let's say you have determined your RMs for squat are:

15RM: 200 lbs
10RM: 250
5RM: 300

For something like this, you will use an increment of 15lbs. Your 6-week cycle will look something like:

In your 1st 6 workouts (the 2 weeks of 15s) you'll squat these weights: 125-140-155-170-185-200 (in workout #1 you'll squat 125lbs, in #2 you'll use 140, and so on.)

Your 10s workouts will look something like:
175-190-205-220-235-250

And your 5s might go like:
225-240-255-270-285-300

Again, this is only showing squats. The same idea hold for all the other lifts you will do in each workout of each 2-week
block for the 15s, 10s and 5s.

At this point, you've been lifting for 6 weeks, 3x/week with the weekends off. Continue for another 2 weeks at the 5RM weight in each lift & do dropsets, or go up weight a little and do a couple weeks of negatives.

For those who critisize this program
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/...t=ST;f=13;t=17

Most of the sighted research does seem to be attainable over the internet so I might look it up. Again I am not refuting any of this as I am always open to new ideas especially that has solid research behind it. In the forums they do have a place where you can list your exprience with the program.

Right now I am training everybody part two times a week, all pushing muscles (chest, shoulders, tris quads etc) Monday and Thursday, and all pulling muscles (Back Bi's Hams etc) Tuesday and Friday. I take Wednesday and the weekends off and have been having some great results. This has been with maximum intensity which I love but I may just give this program a shot by incorporating it into my routine rather than doing a full body workout three times a week (I just wouldn't enjoy training.)

Let me know what you guy's think, this is the first time I have ever heard of this.
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Old 12-Jun-03, 09:00 PM   #2
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HST is over-rated
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Old 12-Jun-03, 09:06 PM   #3
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"Then I get a post from NateDogg that say's maximum intensity is not reccomended for muscle gains and he posts a link to a fitness sight like this one, but with a whole different theory "

Link please.
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Old 12-Jun-03, 09:13 PM   #4
Maxima
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigManSlim
"Then I get a post from NateDogg that say's maximum intensity is not reccomended for muscle gains and he posts a link to a fitness sight like this one, but with a whole different theory "

Link please.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/...t=ST;f=13;t=20

That is what the program entails, only doing your maximum weight at the end of that rep cycle.

It might work, but using the principles that I have held fast to (like working your @$$ off when you lift) has made me very happy with my physical appearence. What I wonder is if you will build as much aerobic capacity using a program like this, since you are really not taxing your body (and heart and lungs) to the brink each work out.

It did make for some interesting reading though.
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Old 12-Jun-03, 09:21 PM   #5
IronMan
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I've been doing a full body workout, 3 x per week for the past year and love it. For the past 6 weeks I've been working on a 5 by 5 program that has given me some fairly good results. I couldn't give the HST program a full shot as I don't have a partner to do the negatives with, but the program looks ok. Lots of useful stuff out there that everyone reacts to in their own way. Just have to be willing to give it a try.
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Old 12-Jun-03, 09:52 PM   #6
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I actually did a cycle of HST and really did not like it at all. It is rather boring working with such low %'s of 1rm all the time. However, I did throw the ideas out there in an effort to show (while using Haycock's very well researched ideas) that going all out to failure all the time and killing yourself is not necessarily the best way to gain muscle in all cases.

Basically the idea that hypertrophy can be attained with or without realizing concentric muscle failure with each training session or even each set as some do.
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Old 12-Jun-03, 09:53 PM   #7
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Along the same lines, I certainly would not go near saying that "we are all wrong," but just that there is/may be another way.
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Old 12-Jun-03, 10:18 PM   #8
Maxima
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Quote:
Originally posted by NateDogg
Along the same lines, I certainly would not go near saying that "we are all wrong," but just that there is/may be another way.
I just put that in so the thread would get attention as it is a new philosophy of training, it was not meant to have any significants other than that. Everyone has a different way of getting to their goals.

My personal exprience and from research that I have read does say that intensity is the highest priority. I would never argue that concentric failure is needed for muscle growth, but would question the degree to which this occurs in high intensity vs low intensity training as far as hypertrophy relationships. Further I would be interested in seeing the neural adaptations (the ability of the nervous system to incorporate new muscle fibers) in the two training techniques as this is another important consideration.

Not a science but I have never scene anyone in all my years of lifting who gets big without doing some grunting and growning during his workouts. Those who work the hardest have always been the ones who get the best results, just my .02
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Old 12-Jun-03, 10:45 PM   #9
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I prefer to let muscles recover nicely before their next session, only that way do I really feel comfortable with giving them a real punishing. I'd like to try getting more negative-only sets in though, I just started doing these occasionally and they are great. I'm open to new ideas too but you gotta wonder when so much of the status-quo is refuted like that... or do you? I'll take a good look at that site soon...

And not to be picky or anything ...
site
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Old 13-Jun-03, 03:02 AM   #10
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I guess all the previous discussions about HST on this board has gone unnoticed. It's a breat of fresh air and I think it works fairly well. The main reason it does is probably previous overtraining on the part of those who try however. But, I subscribe to similar ideas albeit in a slightly different form for my own training. You don't need maximum intensity. High frequency and high volume are not evil. Soreness is not an excuse to sit at home watching TV. And anyone who thinks that submaximal traning doesn't work the cardiovascular system hard is resting too long between sets.
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Old 13-Jun-03, 07:29 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maxima
I would never argue that concentric failure is needed for muscle growth
Is that not what you are saying here?

Quote:
Originally posted by Maxima
Building muscle is actually very easy once you realize how it works. It comes down to this, if you ask your body to do 75 pounds for 4 reps and you do it and put the weights down, even though it hurt you were able to do it. You have just asked your body to do somthing that it can, why should it adapt.

If you try to 75 pounds for 8 reps and can only get five then you have just told your body that it needs to grow so that it can do what you ask it to. You don't have to a ton of sets, just keep the pace going until the muscle is exhuasted and numb. If this happens on the second set fine, just make sure your body gets the picture and it will grow.
...it is why I brought up HST in the first place.

Last edited by NateDogg; 13-Jun-03 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 13-Jun-03, 03:10 PM   #12
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Oooooh... Maxima's been busted!!
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Old 13-Jun-03, 03:21 PM   #13
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Lol
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Old 13-Jun-03, 07:12 PM   #14
Maxima
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Quote:
Originally posted by NateDogg
Is that not what you are saying here?



...it is why I brought up HST in the first place.
DOH!

What I meant by saying that concentric failure is not needed is because you could do only negatives and get muscle growth. The eccentric phase of the exercise has been proven to be 10 times more effective then concentric motion. So yes concentric failure is not needed.

I was only stressing that maximum intensity be put into every set as the ACSM, Cooper Institute and National Strength and Conditioning Association advise. "You should achieve momentary muscle failure during each set, this should be accomplished with proper form." This is straight out of the Cooper manual. I do not doubt that muscular hypertrophy can be attained without going all out, but from my exprience those who work the hardest are the ones who get the best gains. That's what I have persoanlly exprienced, and seen, so that is what I advise. I have not read the studies that HST has listed and I will. However for the mean time based on what has been told to me from agencies who specifically do research in exercise science, what I have exprienced and seen is what I reccomend. I do like the HST conditions of working a muscle out more than once a week, doing a periodized schedule, negatives and taking time off. I will look into the research that goes against so many others (but that is how most things go.)
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