PUSH-PULL splits !!!

[symphoney]

hi,

i have a question on the PUSH-PULL Muscle group splits.

I have heard many people say that best results are obtained when the push-pull muscle group split is followed. This split is as follows :

monday - chest, triceps

wed - legs, abs

fri - shoulder, biceps, back


I have also read some articles which debunk this split. These articles claim that when we work out our chest, we will not be able to excercise our triceps to the fullest. Similar logic applies to the other muscle groups. I personally have felt that this is true.

Any inputs ??????

What is the ideal split ? Where do I accommodate forearms, neck ??

[NateDogg]

If you feel it is true, then don't do a push / pull / legs split. I personally don't feel it's true. Why would a muscle get less of a workout just because it is fatigued? The same people who contend that working chest before tri's will give you a bad tri workout, will probably also tell you that pre-exhausting lats with machine pullovers will give you a better overall back workout because your back, being pre-exhausted, will fail before your bi's do.

Just my completely unscientific $.02.

EDIT: Before switching completely to Westside, I used a push / pull / legs split and really liked it. I'd just to a decent chest workout, followed by a few sets of tri's, and same for back and bi's.

[Merrida]

You know, I could start a serious debate here by pointing out that "technically" from a biomechanical point, literally all muscles are "pull" muscles....

(I'll just wait to see who jumps on this one)

[NateDogg]

Originally posted by Merrida
You know, I could start a serious debate here by pointing out that "technically" from a biomechanical point, literally all muscles are "pull" muscles....

(I'll just wait to see who jumps on this one)

I see what you mean, at some point in a ROM, or at some body angle, all muscles could be considered "pull" muscles, however, the same could probably be applied to making them all "push" muscles... Now legs is another story.

[Merrida]

Actually all muscles work the same way, which is when they contract they pull on levers.

So whether it's a quad, it contracts, it literally pulls up the lower leg lever while the hamstring elongates.

Triceps contract and pull the lower arm down to straighten it while the bicep elongates.

Chest muscles contract and in doing so pull the arm straight across the chest (if you break this down into pressing or flyes, the muscle itself still "does" the same thing).

Hamstrings contract to pull the lower limb in towards the hips.

Calf muscles contract and pull the heel up (the tibialus elongates at this point).

If you think of your limbs as drawbridges, the muscles act like the pulleys, whether the muscle is viewed as a push or pull muscle.

The push/pull refers not to the muscle itself but to the movement you must do associated with it.

But hey,.....like I said, I just tossed that out to pique curiosity or getchya thinkin'.

[NateDogg]

Lol, you know, Merrida, I logged off and thought of that immediately.

[Merrida]

Originally posted by NateDogg
Lol, you know, Merrida, I logged off and thought of that immediately.

Hehe!

[Adam]

NateDogg,

Why is pre-exhausting your lats with pull-overs before your lat pulldown a bad idea - or why does it NOT give you a better back workout. Doesn't it pretty effectively bypass the weakest link (biceps)?

[NateDogg]

Originally posted by Adam
NateDogg,

Why is pre-exhausting your lats with pull-overs before your lat pulldown a bad idea - or why does it NOT give you a better back workout. Doesn't it pretty effectively bypass the weakest link (biceps)?

I did not say it was a bad idea. My point was that while people will say that pre-exhausting lats is a good idea, those same people will effectively say that pre-exhausting tri's and or bi's will prevent one from having a good bi's or tri's workout.

[sac1973]

symphoney during a press what primary muscles do you use? triceps and pecs. so your triceps are getting a workout and a pretty tuff one at that. and another thing..have you ever seen a professional bencher with small triceps? if you have there aren't many. as for the bicep..when you pull on something what does the elbow do? it flexes. if you flex the elbow what muscle would you hit? that's right the bicep. what other exercises do you do where you flex? any pulling/back exercise. my whole point here is that during your pushing or pulling exercises the triceps and biceps are getting hit and they are getting hit hard.

[symphoney]

guys,

thanks for the inputs, but you have not answered my question abt neck, forearm workouts !

What is the ideal split ? Where do I accommodate forearms, neck ??

[mustang GT]

Originally posted by symphoney
guys,

thanks for the inputs, but you have not answered my question abt neck, forearm workouts !

Forearms should go with biceps, but you don't have to do too much forearm work alone cause you hit your forearms hard with your biceps and back exercises. As for neck, I guess you can put that with shoulders. Although I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "neck". The traps are sort of around the lower back part of your neck so if you mean traps, work them with your shoulders, although some people work traps with back. btw, I noticed that you put shoulders on a pull day. Shoulders are considered a push muscle.

[Desperato]

Instead of thinking push or pull muscles, why not just break it down into major muscle groups?

I have had some great success with the following split..

Mon: Chest, Shoulders.
Wed: Arms(tri's, Bi's, and forearms)
Fri: Back & abs
Sat or Sun: Legs (sometimes deadlifts)

This way all muscles get tons of healing time, and you can move bigger weight...

Although I do agree there is nothing wrong with pre-exhausting... Like I do some flys before i do bench some days, so my chest will hit fatigue before my tri's do... But personally I like the feeling of having a fully rested muscle getting a heavy workout

[Merrida]

Your NECK?

Huh?

What on earth are you doing to your neck?

[symphoney]

I curently do only light exercise for my neck. I heard that the neck musles also need to be developed to accentuate your shoulder development. Gimme a few tips about these.

Also , please suggest the ideal split (push-pull is okay !!!).