Question for IRONMAN

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by IronMan

Here is a cut and paste on the 5 x 5 (several variations). It was explained by John Smith and taken from the now defunct Anabolic Science board:

---5X5--- Monday: Squats, Benching, Rows Weds: Squats, Military Presses, Deadlifts, Chins Friday: Squats, Benching, Rows Courtesy of Bill Starr, the greatest strength coach who ever lived, popularized this in the 70's with his great book, The Strongest Shall Survive, which was aimed at strength training for football. I believe he had essentually two different programs which both are 5 sets of 5, the first, which is more suitable for beginners, is to simply do 5 sets of 5 with similar weight jumps between each set so that your last set is your top weight. When you get all 5 on the last set, bump all your weights up 5 or 10lbs. example for squat... 185 for 5, 225 for 5, 275 for 5, 315 for 5, 365 for 5. If you get 365 for 5, move all weights up. This is especially good for someone who is just learning a particular exercise like the squat, because the amount of practice with light but increasing weights is a good way to practice form.

For more advanced lifters, he advocated a warmup, then 5 sets of 5 with a set weight, for example, the same athlete used in the other example may do 135 for 5, 185 for 5, 225 for 3, 275 for 2, 315 for 1, then 350 for 5 sets of 5. When successfull with all 25 reps at 350lbs, bump the weight up the next workout by 5 or 10lbs. This is not outdated, and is a good program for gaining strength. Many elite athletes still use it during at least part of the year. I in fact do 5 sets of 5 on squatting for 4 weeks as part of an 8 or 10 week training cycle. Personally, I do it 3 times a week, but most people will probably make better progress doing it 2 times per week, or even doing version 1 once a week, and version 2 once a week. I gave meathead a program similar to this, but unfortunately, he aquired a pussy for a workout partner and was unable to give it a fair shot because his partner couldnt hack it. It is a tough program. By the way are you doing the exact same workout every time or are you varying the weight a bit--- this might work fine for a while with the same weight every time but eventually you will have to vary things a bit between workouts.

I think I have talked to you about this in e-mail but i cant remember exactly what was said back and forth. In any event I described a system in a post a while back that goes something like this: Monday use the heaviest weight you can for all 5 sets (same weight each set)---- in other words when you get all 5 sets of 5 reps up the weight (most workouts you will get 3 or 4 sets of 5- and maybe your last one will be for 3 or 4 reps). Wednesday use 10-20% less weight- in other words if you used 200lbs on monday use 160-180lbs on Wednesday- actual amount depending on your recovery. Fiday work up to a max set of 5- in other words lets say that your best ever set of 5 is 215lbs and you used 200lbs on Monday for 5 sets and 170lbs on Wednesday- on Friday your workout might be like this 95 for 5 135 for 5 175 for 5 200 for 5 then attempt 220 for your last set of 5.

This tends to work better as a long term program than doing the same thing 3 times a week on exercises where you only do them once a week like deadlift. You can just do the 5 sets of 5 like i described on Monday on exercises that you are only doing twice (rows). You could do both exercises like the Monday workout or lighten one of them depending on your recovery ability. Again, sorry if i am repeating things we talked about in e-mail but i cant remember and by the way- be conservative with the weight when you start- that is important! Also i have used this program VERY often with athletes and it IS result producing- however many of your gains will show up after you use it for 4-6 weeks and you switch to training a bit less frequently and lower the reps and volume. However this is one program i have had a LOT of success with. In fact I rarely if ever use it with athletes who are at the top of their weight class because it causes too much weight gain unless you severely restrict your food.

Do you still follow this? Have you had good strength and mass gains following something like this? I would love for you to elaborate more on what you do. I am very interested in this!

[IronMan]

Last two months or so I've been following a Upper/Lower split -- only because I like to change things up now and again. Next week I'm starting back on the 5 x 5 because I did like the results from the program.

I changed it somewhat by varying my exercises on my three workout days and working with 5 exercises each workout. I kept my core muscle groups as chest, quads, & back and would add shoulder, arm, or calf work to make 5 exercises. It was very good for strength/mass gains. Most of my lifts went up while on it, and my chest was noticeable thicker by the end of my 3 months using the split. This time around I'm going to be concentrating mostly on adding back and shoulder size.

My original 5 x 5:
Monday
Bench
Weighted chins
Squat
Press
Calf raise

Wednesday
Incline bench,
Sumo deads with a shrug at the top,
Hack squats (old style),
Dumbbell curls,
Forearm work

Friday
Dips
T-bar row
Front squats
Straight leg deads
Pushdowns

This time around I'm thinking of using variable resistance each workout (as described in paragraph 3) rather than changing the exercises. On Fridays I may even do 10 sets of 3's for the max, just to see how it works.

What style of this program are you considering using?

[ChrisH]

Im thinking of doing the M-W-F 5x5 routine. It looks very interesting, and I personally enjoy a full body workout more than once per week. My goal is strength and mass, and so it sounds at the end of the third paragraph, and by your comments, it is excellent for both.

I am looking for more upper body mass and strength, but do want lower body as well.

1) What are your suggestions?

2) Do you train to failure when doing this? Can you explain what you do, as far as that?

3) How long do you train with this program, before switching to training less frequent, like 2 times per week, and then how long before you switch back to 3 times per week?

Thanks.

[IronMan]

I am looking for more upper body mass and strength, but do want lower body as well. What are your suggestions?
Do heavy squats or leg presses each workout. If you have the energy levels you could proably add an exercise or two per workout also, but be careful not to overtrain. You might think about doing three or four core exercises at 5 x 5, then doing another two at 3 x 5.

Do you train to failure when doing this? Can you explain what you do, as far as that?
No, I don't train to failure. Doing a full body routine is tough on the system. When I can make my 5 reps on all 5 sets I add weight. Usually my first two sets after adding weight I'll be able to get up 5 reps. Then the next sets I'll shoot for 4. The last set might be 3. Then the next workout I'll go 5,5,4,4,4. Next workout 5,5,5,4,4. Keep doing this until you get the full 5 x 5. The thing is to know your body and be able to determine before you pick up the weight how many reps you can get on each set. Then stop before reaching failure. When using a routine such as this there is nothing wrong with leaving a little bit of gas in the tank. Also, be sure to keep a log (nothing fancy, just a note book to write down exercises, weights, sets, & reps in) to keep track of what you did on previous workouts.

How long do you train with this program, before switching to training less frequent, like 2 times per week, and then how long before you switch back to 3 times per week?
I usually plan on using any particular routine for 3 months before I change. No specific basis for that, that has just always been the way I train. I do like isolation exercises, so changing routines helps keep me mentally fresh.

Thanks.
:thumbup: If you choose to use this workout I would very much like to know your program and follow your progress.

[ChrisH]

I am definately going to be following this program. It sounds very good to me. I am going to be creating it, as far as what exercises I do, over the weekend, and will let you know by Monday what my routine will look like. I will also keep you up to date regarding my progress.

About not training to failure. I realize most of it has to do with knowing your own body and knowing how many reps you typically lose per set, etc., as well as what weight will allow your target reps.

So...with that said, let me explain/ask something.

Say your max bench is 130. about 115 or so, will give you 5 reps. But that 5 reps is to failure. You should instead chose say 110, which may allow 7 reps to failure, but stop at 5? After this, the following set, may be closer to failure than the first, but still attempt 5 reps? Then, from there, basically it is knowing your body and when you are say a couple reps from failure, just stop?

I know it is probably simple, but I have only not trained to failure on just a few occasions, and not for any length of time. Does it basically just come down to trial and error your first week or so to see what your body does?

Thanks.

[IronMan]

You explained it perfectly. Start at a weight you know you can get for more than five, work up from there. On my last few sets I try and stop when I know there is a good possiblity the last rep will fail, or is very close to it. If I can add a rep or two on any set I consider it a worthwhile workout. Even on my last set I try to avoid going to failure. Usually the only time I'm tempted to go to failure is when I've been stuck for one or two workouts. To get around that I take a bit more time between sets to get past that point and add a rep or two.

I also keep an eye on the clock and make sure that no exercise takes more than 10 minutes from start to completion. Most will take in the 7 minute range. This usually gives me enough rest and keeps the workout moving.

The first week is mostly trial and error finding poundages but it is time well spent.

[ChrisH]

Here is what I am going to do.

Monday:
Bench Press
Bent Over Row
Shoulder Press
SLDL
Leg Extensions (to be replaced with squats in a week or two)

Wednesday:
Bench Press
Bent Over Row
Shoulder Press
Bicep Curls
Leg Extensions (to be replaced with squats in a week or two - when replaced, I will remove squats from Wednesday)

Friday:
Bench Press
Bent Over Row
Shoulder Press
SLDL
Leg Extensions (to be replaced with squats in a week or two)

How does this look? It is basic exercises for right now, since I am just beginning with this program. I will hit all the major lifts, minus squats for a week or two, due to equipment.

[IronMan]

Basic exercises are what you want for a program of this type. It is designed to be used with compound lifts. Looking good! :thumbup:

What piece of equipment are you waiting on for squats? They will be much better to use than extensions.