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Old 21-Aug-06, 10:48 AM   #46
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also as max previously states all the time it seems like lol cholesterol turns into testosterone so how are you supposed to build an impressive physique as a man by completely cutting it out?
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Old 21-Aug-06, 10:59 AM   #47
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however, the first step is to remove cholesterol from the diet.
Why? Are you stating that cholesterol found in plaque in your blood vessels is attributed to dietary cholesterol?

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Old 21-Aug-06, 11:11 AM   #48
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In the Cholesterol Lowering Atherosclerosis Study, 82 moderately overweight men with CAD underwent a 2-yr program. Men who improved their diets showed no new fatty deposits in their coronary vessels, determined by coronary angiography. However, men who failed to make significant dietary changes all showed evidence of new lesions. Neither group lost any weight during the 2-yr study, suggesting that the appearance of new lesions can be influenced without weight change (47)
I am curious as to the quality of the diary / meat products consumed cited in your last study (how it was produced / prepared / cooked). Would you entertain the idea that those whose atherosclerosis did not worsen was perhaps not directly due to reduced (saturated) fat and stated lipid intake, but rather removing poorly produced / cooked meat / dairy products from their overall diet, or perhaps *significantly* limiting ingesting said foods which just happened to have a knock on effect on quantity of fat / lipid types eaten?

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Old 21-Aug-06, 01:34 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by rab91787
Wow, okay. I'm guessing you never knew any of this stuff because you never learned any basic Biology stuff and just went straight into college research.

http://maxpages.com/miraj681/Biology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_density_lipoprotein
http://www.americanheart.org/present...identifier=180

With a simple search of hdl, arteries, and exercise, you get a lot of results:

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?...icp=1&.intl=us
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=13241

:
Thanks for the links.:

These articles do report that exercise is one of a number of interventions to help elevate HDL levels. Higher HDL levels prevent plaque build-up by carrying plaque build-up away.

So why consume dietary cholesterol? Any dietary cholesterol is in excess of what the body requires. The body normally produces all that it needs.

I do value the health benefits of regular exercise - I work out 5 times a week. I just don't have any illusions that it will save me from a heart attack. I had - past tense - a good friend who dropped dead of a heart attack at the gym. He was quite fit for the 20 years I knew him but that didn't save him. Of course, this is just incidental, but I've not seen any studies that demonstrate where heart disease was systematically reversed or heart attacks eliminated through exercise alone.
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Old 21-Aug-06, 02:39 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by B.A.
Why? Are you stating that cholesterol found in plaque in your blood vessels is attributed to dietary cholesterol?

~ B.A.
From what I have read and experienced, the build-up of plaques in blood vessels originate with the cholesterol-laden, high fat, Western diet. Coronary artery disease is virtually absent in cultures that eat plant-based diets, such as the Tarahumara Indians of northern Mexico, the Papua highlanders of New Guinea, and the inhabitants of rural China and central Africa. Hundreds of thousands of rural Chinese go for years without a single documented myocardial infarction.

Here is an informative link on this subject:

Resolving the Coronary Artery Disease Epidemic through Plant-Based Nutrition - Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., MD
http://www.vegsource.com/esselstyn/resolving_cade.htm
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Old 21-Aug-06, 03:08 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vegan
From what I have read and experienced, the build-up of plaques in blood vessels originate with the cholesterol-laden, high fat, Western diet. Coronary artery disease is virtually absent in cultures that eat plant-based diets, such as the Tarahumara Indians of northern Mexico, the Papua highlanders of New Guinea, and the inhabitants of rural China and central Africa. Hundreds of thousands of rural Chinese go for years without a single documented myocardial infarction.



Vegan in my opinion that is a biest study because all the indians were very active and in good cardio condition!!! they lived off the land and were in good shape! They didn't sit on there asses all day or they would have died. It could have been the cardio and exercise that made the difference in the study not the meat. There is too many variables to pinpoint meat as the problem. It could be so many things.

It would be interesting to go back in time and give all these cultures meat and i personally believe it wouldnt have made that much of a difference.

My grandpa smoked every day until he was 96 does that mean smoking isnt bad for you?

The point i see it as if your not interested in bodybuilding there is no point of eating great amounts of protein but if you are and you workout its not that bad especially if your trying to put on muscle. If you have the typical american diet definitely needs some help dont get me wrong im not defending the western diet
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Old 21-Aug-06, 03:10 PM   #52
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From what I have read and experienced, the build-up of plaques in blood vessels originate with the cholesterol-laden, high fat, Western diet.
"Contrary to widespread belief, changing the amount of cholesterol in the diet has only a minor influence on blood cholesterol concentration in most people. This is because compensatory mechanisms are engaged."

Basically increased HDL activity to transport (remove) excess cholesterol and reduced cholesterol production by the body. Apologies I can't source this via the internet, though the physical source is Advanced Nutrition & Human Metabolism (James L. Groff / Sareen S. Gropper).

There is however a *small* percentage of people that, due to genetic reasons do respond negatively (marker for atherosclerosis, CHD etc) to excess dietary cholesterol (perhaps yourself hence your "experience"?) and as such medical advice to switch to a very alternative dietary lifestyle. Very similar to the fact that again due to genetic / physiological reasons some people respond positively to an "Atkin's" type diet.

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Old 21-Aug-06, 03:24 PM   #53
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My grandpa smoked every day until he was 96 does that mean smoking isnt bad for you?
ROFL
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Old 21-Aug-06, 03:26 PM   #54
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Almost all of the studies/articles etc in favor of a vegan lifestyle tend to compare tree hugging grass eaters to fast food junkies which isn't a fair comparison. Seldom to they compare active people where the omnivore (yes meat and veggies) eats only lean meats as most on this board do.

As far as for the good of mainkind and ending world hunger we really need to look at the warlords that hijack aid shipments before you look at my chicken sandwich for the root cause. At the bulk store you can buy a bag of 50 lb bag of rice shipped all the way from china (which could easily be shipped to Africa for less) for $5 which will provide who know how many hundred meals to the starving.
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Old 21-Aug-06, 03:34 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.A.
"Contrary to widespread belief, changing the amount of cholesterol in the diet has only a minor influence on blood cholesterol concentration in most people. This is because compensatory mechanisms are engaged."

Basically increased HDL activity to transport (remove) excess cholesterol and reduced cholesterol production by the body. Apologies I can't source this via the internet, though the physical source is Advanced Nutrition & Human Metabolism (James L. Groff / Sareen S. Gropper).

There is however a *small* percentage of people that, due to genetic reasons do respond negatively (marker for atherosclerosis, CHD etc) to excess dietary cholesterol (perhaps yourself hence your "experience"?) and as such medical advice to switch to a very alternative dietary lifestyle. Very similar to the fact that again due to genetic / physiological reasons some people respond positively to an "Atkin's" type diet.

~ B.A.
How many times have I been trying to get this across. Vegan your argument does not hold when compared to a balanced diet. I will agree a vegan diet is better than a modern fastfood diet but not the best that can be got. If you are worried about chemicals antibiotics go organic. Even rear your own chickens.
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Old 21-Aug-06, 03:45 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by B.A.
I am curious as to the quality of the diary / meat products consumed cited in your last study (how it was produced / prepared / cooked). Would you entertain the idea that those whose atherosclerosis did not worsen was perhaps not directly due to reduced (saturated) fat and stated lipid intake, but rather removing poorly produced / cooked meat / dairy products from their overall diet, or perhaps *significantly* limiting ingesting said foods which just happened to have a knock on effect on quantity of fat / lipid types eaten?

~ B.A.
I was unsuccessful in obtaining the original study. I only have the abstract of general findings from the UCLA study.

How do you differentiate 'poorly produced or cooked meat and dairy products'? For example... Do you mean deep fried vs. boiled vs. grilled? The meat muscle itself has an inherent amount of cholesterol in it. I don't believe the manner of preparation has much effect on that. Broiling the meat could reduce the amount of saturated fat but high temperature cooking may create other toxic substances.
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Old 21-Aug-06, 03:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by vegan
but high temperature cooking may create other toxic substances.
Now thats when we run into coronary issues
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Old 21-Aug-06, 04:21 PM   #58
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How do you differentiate 'poorly produced or cooked meat and dairy products'? For example... Do you mean deep fried vs. boiled vs. grilled? The meat muscle itself has an inherent amount of cholesterol in it. I don't believe the manner of preparation has much effect on that. Broiling the meat could reduce the amount of saturated fat but high temperature cooking may create other toxic substances.
Well genetically modified battery livestock (e.g. cows) pumped full of various drugs (steroids, antibiotics etc) and fed artificial food and the junk parts of other animals inc. bovine (I think this was a marker for human CJD in the nineties?) mechanically processed / treated and frozen for transport to be cooked as a McDonalds burger, compared with say natural free range bovine eating organic grass, butchered by a human and grilled in butter as a rare cooked (burning meat is carcinogenic as we know) lean sirloin steak.

^ This would be for factors attributing to CVD outside of (arguably) saturated fat, certain lipid type and cholesterol.

Both examples are high in saturated fat and cholesterol, but we don't think of a Western Diet as being the latter (obviously more expensive - and implausible) but of a high fat, high cholesterol diet rich in french fries, fast food burgers, potato chips, takeaway food, confectionery, biscuits etc.

To at least summarise, I would argue the quality & frequency of the "food" eaten (in tandem with sedentary lifestyle) in contributing largely to Western health problems rather than a blanket statement saying saturated fat / animal based foods are bad for you regardless of how it's produced / cooked.

The majority of Westerners would benefit from vegetarian / vegan lifestyle compared to current dietary habits, if only because organic free range produced meat / dairy on a national scale would be implausible.

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Old 21-Aug-06, 05:29 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by B.A.
"Contrary to widespread belief, changing the amount of cholesterol in the diet has only a minor influence on blood cholesterol concentration in most people. This is because compensatory mechanisms are engaged."
I certainly agree that there are numerous factors involved in plaque build-up. They vary by individual, however, much of the current attention on genetic interactions is misplaced.

Many of the studies I've seen conducted on the effect of cholesterol lowering, start with subjects on Western diets who are put on diets that consist of a meaningless reduction in fat and cholesterol ...and surprise... a meaningless response in cholesterol occurs. A low-fat diet is often considered to be 30% of calories from fat when 8-12% of calories from fat is actually a low-fat, natural diet. Some of the better research I've seen on vegetarian and vegan diets has been conducted in the UK by Oxford University.

The documented studies of Dr. Dean Ornish, Dr. John McDougall and Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn completely contradict the statement you've quoted. McDougall runs a well-known clinic in Santa Rosa California where he gets rapid reductions in serum cholesterol in just 10 days after completely eliminating the sources of dietary cholesterol by adopting a plant-based diet. There's no real magic to this. Genes have very little to do with it.

There is a bunch of foolishness about cholesterol in the mind of the American public (due to a lot of clever advertising) that goes something like this:

"I have high cholesterol - but my body reacts to food differently due to my genes. I've tried [meaningless] changes to my diet and exercise and that doesn't work. My cholesterol levels are set by the genes I inherited from grandpa and grandma. I can't do anything about my genes, therefore it doesn't make any sense to change my diet either. Solution? I'll have the ribs and chicken and take some (name the statin) pills to get my cholesterol in check. I have to die from something anyway, so I suppose a heart attack isn't too bad."
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Old 21-Aug-06, 05:33 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Maxgain
Now thats when we run into coronary issues
Hey - we agree on somethin!
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