Eat BEFORE Lifting and Cardio for Fat Loss?

[fordlife]

I have read and heard all scenarios and still cannot get a correct answer.

Should I eat before I do my cardio in the morning? I heard running on am empty stomach was better for fat loss.

I have been running for 30 minutes...i think its at least 2.5 miles........every morning and then eating a variation of 4 egg whites with 1 yoke, oatmeal, chicken breast, cottage cheese, and or steak. I then bike to the gym for a 1 hour weight lifting work out.

I worry that the carbs in the oatmeal will hurt my fat loss chances. Also, sometimes I go straight to the gym and do HIIT cardio on an empty stomach.

I am 5'6 and weigh 155. I used to weigh 197 about 4 years ago with BF% at 25, I am guessing its low 20s or mid teens now. My objective is loos my midsection and get big elsewhere.

ALso, I am in college and go to sleep around 1230-1 in the morning and wake up around 8 to run and lift. When should I stop eating during the day to maintain fat loss?

Thanks
Ryan

[Lady C]

I wouldn't do cardio AND weights on the same day. By splitting them to different days, you will see better gains from both.

[CliffStamp]

Originally Posted by fordlife

I heard running on am empty stomach was better for fat loss.

I worry that the carbs in the oatmeal will hurt my fat loss chances.

My objective is loos my midsection and get big elsewhere.

When should I stop eating during the day to maintain fat loss?

The idea behind exercising on an empty stomach is really basic - "Since your glycogen reserves are depleted and your blood sugar levels low, *obviously*, you will tend to burn more fat as there are no carbs to use as fuel."

It is trivial to see this is nonsense, because if you follow the same logic, then the ideal workout program would be to not eat at all and just work out and thus you will maximize fat loss.

Endurance activities by their very nature of energy requirements burn fat becuse they need little power, or energy in a given time frame. They also elevate the metabolism and keep burning fat long after you stop, this is why it is best to do them in the morning.

Unless you want to do a ketogenic diet, the carbs in the oatmeal are not going to hinder weight loss.

You may find it difficult to cut the gut and build the other muscles very large at the same time. So you might want to try to diet down to ~15% where you start to see abs. Then increase your calories and try to gain some muscle.

How fat you go with each and to what extent is very person dependent. Some hard gainers get ripped very readily, but tend to put on mass *very* slowly so dieting is easy, but bulking is *HARD*. Some people gain weight easy, but find it massively difficult to cut.

Eating late at night is in general prone to weight gain because you are providing your body with energy when it is the least active, when to stop depends on what you are eating. A complex balanced meat at 6-8 PM for dinner will keep digesting until 2-4 AM in the morning.

-Cliff

[bgodd1]

I WOULD lift & do cardio the same days--just about 8 hours apart.
Do cardio in the morning--as far as fat loss, do hight instensity cardio such as sprints instead of running. Do something that will elevate your heart rate in intervals for about 16-20 minutes. What this does is boosts your Resting metabolic rate throughout the day( burning fat all day long as opposed to just while you run). I would definetly eat some protein when you awake. Your body is starving for it all night, so waking, not eating and doing cardio will make you catabolic, use muscle for energy.
I would then eat more protein after cardio with carbs for replenishment. I use the same rules for weight training, eat protein before and after.
As far as wating at night, I would stick with something like low-fat cottage cheese, this is a source of protein that is slowly released.

Eating high protein & low glycemic carbs every 3 hours while weight training will build lean muscle mass, the more lean muslce mass you have, the higher your resting metabolic rate is, the higher your RMR is, the more fat you will burn. So it is very possible to lose fat and gain lean muscle mass at the same time. Ideas saying this is impossible are 'old school'. There are many out there that are proof to this. I am one of them.

[ev884]

so what is the answer to his question? don't eat b4 cardio but eat b4 lifting?

[DuncanMcFl]

Originally Posted by ev884

so what is the answer to his question? don't eat b4 cardio but eat b4 lifting?

I think it really depends on your goals.

If your goals are purely to lose fat then do not eat before cardio as you will burn of more of your fat reserves since blood sugar and glycogen stores will be low.

If your goals are purely to gain muscle then either don't do cardio or make sure you eat about 1-2 hours before and immediately after cardio. Never eat immediately before cardio as you will have serious digestion and energy problems while running on a full stomach. Eat maybe an hour before you run and keep it calorie high but light (such as an energy bar, or oatmeal).

If your goals are a little of both then I suggest eating light before you run, heavy after you run, and heavy both before and after weights. This will ensure that your body is adequately nourished while lifting, thus promoting muscle growth, and will allow you to still gain the metabolic boost running gives you without risking too much muscle loss. Your fat loss will be less than running on an empty stomach but you will be minimizing muscle loss. It's tricky doing both at the same time but that's my strategy anyway. I lift and feed my body well before and after lifting. When I feel my weight getting too high I'll up the cardio to adjust. Sorry I can't give a more clear answer. I'm still figuring it out too.

[ev884]

thanks that was very informative and u answered my questions :

[jimmyv]

How about this: Why not eat a very small, carbohydrate-free breakfast before you do cardio in the morning? A couple of eggs would be nice.

[DuncanMcFl]

Originally Posted by jimmyv

How about this: Why not eat a very small, carbohydrate-free breakfast before you do cardio in the morning? A couple of eggs would be nice.

Yes that is a good idea. As bgodd1 pointed out, when you wake up your body has been in a state of fasting for several hours. If you provide your body with a good source of protein before running it will be much less likely to catabolize your muscles during running. Carbs before running however will elevate blood sugar which will reduce the amount of fat you burn.

So to clarify... to prevent muscle catabolism and also get the benefits of a good cardio workout...

Eat a light, slow digesting protein about an hour before you run. No carbs. After running eat more protein and some carbs as well to replenish muscle glycogen.

If your goals are strictly fat loss and you are not concerned about loss of muscle as well then do cardio on an empty stomach. It should be noted however that this approach will almost definately lead to some muslce loss as well and since muscle is the most metabolically active tissue, even at rest, losing muscle will slow your metabolism (and thus eventually slow your weight loss) by approx. 50 calories/day/pound of muscle lost.

[Stevo]

Before you do cardio, try a protein shake made up of skim milk powder, skimmed cottage cheese, peanut paste and a banana. It has heaps of protein in it and costs next to nothing. An added bonus is that it tastes totally awesome too. It will also help reduce muscle degradation.

Enjoy.

[CliffStamp]

Originally Posted by DuncanMcFl

If your goals are purely to lose fat then do not eat before cardio as you will burn of more of your fat reserves since blood sugar and glycogen stores will be low.

In this case your body will simply consume LBM, the glycogen / fat pathways don't switch this fast, if they did you would not need to eat anything but protein when dieting and your body would simply burn fat for energy.

People sometimes suggest protein to prevent LBM catabolization, which doesn't work as your body doesn't burn the LBM because it needs protein, it does it because it is used to burning carbs and it can make them from protein readily.

If you want the running (or watever) to burn more fat then eat a higher fat diet to activate the fat burning pathways. or simply run more and your body will do this naturally. Highly experienced runners can burn 80+% of fat for energy.

-Cliff

[DuncanMcFl]

Originally Posted by CliffStamp

In this case your body will simply consume LBM, the glycogen / fat pathways don't switch this fast, if they did you would not need to eat anything but protein when dieting and your body would simply burn fat for energy.

People sometimes suggest protein to prevent LBM catabolization, which doesn't work as your body doesn't burn the LBM because it needs protein, it does it because it is used to burning carbs and it can make them from protein readily.

If you want the running (or watever) to burn more fat then eat a higher fat diet to activate the fat burning pathways. or simply run more and your body will do this naturally. Highly experienced runners can burn 80+% of fat for energy.

-Cliff

Hmm. Interesting points and logically I'd say the arguments are pretty sound. I will have to look into it more but I would think your body would already be in a fat burning mode after a nights sleep since you'd been fasting for 8-12 hours. I had also been under the impression that with slow endurance training, fat is the preferred fuel as it provides a slow sustained release of energy.

[CliffStamp]

Originally Posted by DuncanMcFl

....I would think your body would already be in a fat burning mode after a nights sleep since you'd been fasting for 8-12 hours.

It takes days for ketosis to set in significantly, unless you do a fat fast, and/or eat a lot of highly ketogenic foods like coconut milk, butter, etc. .

I had also been under the impression that with slow endurance training, fat is the preferred fuel as it provides a slow sustained release of energy.

Yes, up to 80%+ in trained athletes. There is some carb requriement though for all, and if it isn't there, your body will readily catabolize protein to get it unless you have switched to a highly ketogenic state.

So your best bet would be either to be highly ketogenic, or supply your body with the small amount of carbs it needs to prevent excessive catabolism, pre-workout.

Don't go too concerned if you do skip the carb pre-load on occasion, as your body will readily rebound from the catabolism anyway with a higher protein sensitivity later on.

Plus we are talking about low levels of catabolism anyway for a small run, 30 minutes of so, ~300 calories, so maybe 100 calories worth of carbs in an inexperienced runner (1/4 cup of oatmeal), down to ~60 for an advanced athlete, ~half a banana.

If you were going to run a marathon then you would want to effectively pre-load of course, as hours of running on empty could set off extensive catabolism (you are looking at a calorie load of thousands). Generally of course overweight people on diets can't do that kind of activity anyway so its a moot point.

-Cliff

[BLADE]

I bonked while running on an empty stomach last year and nearly did not make it home.

I was told that fat burns in a flame of carbohydrate so eat a little bit of complex carbs prior to running such as 12-grain toast.

[DuncanMcFl]

Originally Posted by CliffStamp

If you want the running (or watever) to burn more fat then eat a higher fat diet to activate the fat burning pathways. or simply run more and your body will do this naturally. Highly experienced runners can burn 80+% of fat for energy.
-Cliff

Question: Wouldn't a similar line of logic suggest that consuming a diet high in protein would keep protein utilization pathways active and promote muscle catabolism? Yet weight trainers emphasize high protein diets.

Also let me see if I now have this straight:
It is correct that low-moderate intensity running primarily burns fat. However at all times it is still utilizing some blood glucose and glycogen. If these sources become depleted it will turn to protein thus ingesting some complex carbs before a run will minimize the amount of muscle that is catabolized for protein. Did I get it?

In that case I still don't follow something... you said earlier:

Originally Posted by CliffStamp

People sometimes suggest protein to prevent LBM catabolization, which doesn't work as your body doesn't burn the LBM because it needs protein, it does it because it is used to burning carbs and it can make them from protein readily.

Right. It's burning the LBM because it needs carbs which it can readily make from protein. But how does that explain why eating protein sources before a run won't prevent catabolism? If it's breaking down the LBM for protein (though in actuality for the carbs it can easily manufacture from that protein) then wouldn't having dietary protein readily available minimize catabolism?