Fat reduction or Muscle Gain?

[fat_unfit]

Hello,
I have been reading over many of the posts on this site and many others and I have come to one conculsion.....Its all very confusing!
I am not sure which path to follow and which diet to take. I am a 26 year old male and I weight around 240lbs with approx 44% body fat. I am not too sure what the best way to proceed is. I would liketo start weight training and bulk up but I would also like to reduce fat. Nearlly all the articles I have read say that this is practically impossible to do at the same time and I should concentrate on doing one or the other.

To gain muscle, I should be eating around 2800 cals per day with about 240g of protein and the rest split between carbs and fat. This to me seems like a lot and I would be afraid of building muscle but looking like a freak show because no fat has come off.
On the other hand, there is the low cal diet, which i could start to reduce my body fat. However, this seems bad as any weight triaining I do might be counteracted by the catabolic state my body will go into after high cardio etc. and in turn my body could start eating into my muscle store for energy.

Can anybody recommend what I should do here? I would like to have some muscle mass and lose fat and start getting healthy. I am not afraid of the hard work it will involve and I have set my self a realistic goal for progress (1 year at least). The problem I have is not the lack of information but the opposite. There seems to be so much information regarding everything except how to make a fatman build muscle
Thanks is advance

[Gearloose]

I'd say get rid of as much of the fat as possible first. I weighed 264 pounds when I started cardio training and losing weight in July 04. I started weight training in December, 04.

There's lots of diet advice here. Read the stickys at the top of this section. Determine your calorie needs based on your goals and your current BMI- body mass index. Basically, cut the calories by cutting the junk and eat lots of quality protein and complex carbohydrates with a little of the "good" fats. A general rule of thumb for muscle growth is 40% protein, 40% good carbs & 20% good fats. Keep the calorie intake balanced with everything else and you will drop the fat without losing much muscle.

Getting that fat off your body should be your #1 goal right now. You can do this with a combination of weight training and cardio training.

Here's how I did it: http://www.yellowjacketsystems.com/trikesl

[threenorns]

do NOT believe it when ppl tell you it's impossible to lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously - it's absolutely doable, just takes a lot longer than most ppl want to wait.

things to do:

• clean up your diet - 2800cal in a 26 y/o male is not excessive, particularly if you put most of the emphasis on protein, something like 40/40/20 or even 50/30/20 protein/carbs/fat ratios: so long as your kidneys are normal and you don't have diabetes mellitus or similar conditions, there is NO DANGER to a high protein diet
• use a site like www.fitday.com to plan out your day's intake - much easier to monitor and keep motivated when you have a little checklist you can tick off as the day progresses
• eat small meals every three hours
• make your pre- and post-workout meals rich in carbs, post-workout meal rich in protein also, make your pre- and post-cardio meals carb-deficient
• throw away your alarm clock: go to sleep when you're tired and get up when you awaken naturally. this is important, as your body needs REST in order to do its thing
• do the weights three to five times a week, working the same body part no more than three days apart
• do HIIT cardio on days you don't lift weights or at least 12 hours separate from your workouts: HIIT will not only jack your metabolism like stink, but it'll actually build muscle. my favourite exercise is sled dragging.
• walk as much as possible - borrow the neighbour's dog(s)
• GIVE IT TIME: you didn't get big in a week, you won't get small in a week

[Klide]

Gearloose and threenorns covered it... I just wanted to wish you good luck!

[CF-OC_gal]

A lot of your worries are not so "cut and dry". You are not going to go catabolic to the point that you reverse the good you do and you are not going to gain muscle so noticably that you will look like a freak. These kinds of things are due to excessive behaviours and not the kind that got you to where you are now.

Always do cardio, weight and flexibility training. They should all be a part of everyone's fitness program. For you, your priorities will shift as you progress through your changes. I agree with Gear, make cardio the emphasis at the beginning but at the same time start conditioning yourself for weight training.

Don't follow crazy fads for a diet. Do something you know you can stick with. Maintenace is the hardest part of dieting. Plan on making small progressive changes in your eating habits if this is all new to you.

Cursor has a way of laying out a step by step process for establishing a diet plan . Maybe he'll be around.

[drdjsmm]

Originally Posted by threenorns

do NOT believe it when ppl tell you it's impossible to lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously - it's absolutely doable, just takes a lot longer than most ppl want to wait.

things to do:

• clean up your diet - 2800cal in a 26 y/o male is not excessive, particularly if you put most of the emphasis on protein, something like 40/40/20 or even 50/30/20 protein/carbs/fat ratios: so long as your kidneys are normal and you don't have diabetes mellitus or similar conditions, there is NO DANGER to a high protein diet
• use a site like www.fitday.com to plan out your day's intake - much easier to monitor and keep motivated when you have a little checklist you can tick off as the day progresses
• eat small meals every three hours
• make your pre- and post-workout meals rich in carbs, post-workout meal rich in protein also, make your pre- and post-cardio meals carb-deficient
• throw away your alarm clock: go to sleep when you're tired and get up when you awaken naturally. this is important, as your body needs REST in order to do its thing
• do the weights three to five times a week, working the same body part no more than three days apart
• do HIIT cardio on days you don't lift weights or at least 12 hours separate from your workouts: HIIT will not only jack your metabolism like stink, but it'll actually build muscle. my favourite exercise is sled dragging.
• walk as much as possible - borrow the neighbour's dog(s)
• GIVE IT TIME: you didn't get big in a week, you won't get small in a week

Everything is golden except "so long as your kidneys are normal and you don't have diabetes mellitus or similar conditions, there is NO DANGER to a high protein diet"

Just to clarify, diabeties mellitus is a condition of the body and it's uptake of sugar from the blood stream.

Also high protein IS a killer in the American diet, mainly because we ingest too much saturated fats, such as red meat and butter and not enough buffers such as fruits and vegetables and omega-3's. Heart disease is in the top five causes of death in ages 15-65 and number one in people 65 and older. Increased protein has to be from good sources such as fish and white meat to cause no danger. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for a heart attack at 40!

[threenorns]

not quite - not all saturated fats are bad and, in the absence of pre-existing cholesterol problems, dietary intake of cholesterol has little to no effect on blood lipid levels.

the problem is not dietary fat, per se, but dietary fat combined with a sedentary lifestyle and high stress levels.

[veggieboy]

Fat unfit,

Some people say it's possible to build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Don't believe them. I suppose anything's possible, but is it probable? Is it likely to happen? I don't think so. So if you wanna lose fat, focus on HIIT and forget about WT and muscle building for the time being. Once you lose fat, you can pick it up again. Doing both WT and HIIT could be tiring and you dont benefit from either. Suppose you lift four days, you can only do HIIT for 2 days, assuming you take sundays off. And 2 days a week isn't gonna cut it. But if you drop WT, you'll have enough time and energy to perform HIIT for at least 4 or 5 days, doing which you can become lean and fit in just over a month. it worked for me. :

[veggieboy]

Also, you must cut down on carbs and junk food for your HIIT to be successful.

[threenorns]

Originally Posted by veggieboy

Fat unfit,

Some people say it's possible to build muscle and lose fat at the same time. Don't believe them. I suppose anything's possible, but is it probable? Is it likely to happen? I don't think so.

check my progress pics.

like i said, it's not as fast as just stripping off fat then trying to put back muscle, but it's a more solid, longer-lasting result.

[Lady C]

Originally Posted by veggieboy

So if you wanna lose fat, focus on HIIT and forget about WT and muscle building for the time being. Once you lose fat, you can pick it up again. Doing both WT and HIIT could be tiring and you dont benefit from either. :

I think you are misinformed. MANY NEWBIES will benefit from doing both weight training and cardio. So yes, they can lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously. If you find doing both tiring then maybe you are trying to do too much too fast.

I agree with the DR that not everyone should be on such a high protein diet. This is where they will have to figure out what ratio works for their individual body.


PS:Anyone that thinks starving to lose weight is healthy is not where I will take my advice.

[threenorns]

besides which, starving and cardio-ing down to a lower weight just makes you a "skinny fat" person when what you want is to preserve and grow metabolically-active muscle tissue.

[fat_unfit]

Thanks for the replys.
I have since posted a meal plan I am hoping to stick with. I have also been looking into the many, many posts and websites there are on the subject of HIIT. And there seems to be loads of conflicting information. What I have come up with is this:
I will try and stick to my meal plan of around 2000cals per day with around 55% protein, 35% carb and 10% fat. I will be lifting, using a beginners workout, for 3 days a weeks for 10 weeks. After each workout I will be doing up to 16 minutes of HIIT on a bike or treadmill.
The actual studies I found strongly suggest that HIIT on the same day as lifting will have no effect on muscle store at my level as long as have enough food before and after the workout. (I know a lot of people here will not agree with this, but many sites and researches can not find a direct problem with this - at least as far as I can see)
I will hopefully keep you updated on how I go and I will be checking back very often. I have ditched the scales by the way and I will not be concerned with weight, instead dealing with my measurements.
Thanks again

[Lady C]

Originally Posted by fat_unfit

The actual studies I found strongly suggest that HIIT on the same day as lifting will have no effect on muscle store at my level as long as have enough food before and after the workout.

I agree with this! As long as the cardio is AFTER the weights.

Originally Posted by fat_unfit

I will not be concerned with weight, instead dealing with my measurements.

Make sure to take "before" pics. They will be invaluable later. Also write down your measurements so that in 3 week intervals you can check them and compare. As long as the belly measurement keeps going down and the biceps either increase or stay the same, you are on the right track.

[cursor]

Originally Posted by fat_unfit

Nearly all the articles I have read say that this is practically impossible to do at the same time and I should concentrate on doing one or the other.

Then you're reading the wrong articles ... from the wrong contributors. : You'll find the same sentiment expressed in this thread:

Too much information (source link)

One of the learning methods that I have found to be extremely worthwhile is to pick a small set of people that you respect—who clearly know what they're talking about. Learn what they have to say. Follow their example. Any input that comes from any other sources should be bounced off of this core set of truths that you've adopted (at least they are truths for you now). As you learn, you'll find yourself more skilled at sorting sensible information from the clearly misguided (and sometimes utterly rediculous).

Originally Posted by fat_unfit

I am not sure which path to follow and which diet to take. I am a 26 year old male and I weigh around 240-lbs with approx 44% body fat. I am not too sure what the best way to proceed is. I would like to start weight training and bulk up but I would also like to reduce fat.

You might find a few of these threads to be helpful:

Creating a plan: workout & nutrition
Slimming Down
Workout Timing and Diet Tactics
Workout day vs nonWorkout day
Aerobics :: cursor & Connelly
Muscular Weight Gain