Intentionally spiking insulin. Why?

[rbuchman]

I always thought you wanted to keep blood sugar and thus insulin fairly constant but people talk about intentionally spikeing their insulin levels, what are the uses of doing this?

[Lee J B]

Yes, this is good practice. You'd do well to intentionally spike your insulin levels post-workout because your insulin is a carrier of nutrients. The faster and more concentrated the insulin spike the faster your precious protein will be pumped into your muscles. It is also healpful to do this with creatine, thus why people drink it with grapejuice and such like.

Of course the above is only a simplistic explanation but you should get the idea from it.

Cheers.

[Aw-De-Oh]

This would only be used as a recovery technique though, right?

[B.A.]

Spot on Lee.

Insulin is needed to force amino acids and glucose into your cells. The less insulin in the blood, the less you can force these vital nutrients into your cells (particularly muscular).

However, constant insulin spikes are not wanted as it encourages lipogenesis and fat storage.

Your muscles and liver are not completely glycogen depleted (unless you have completed a marathon or something) post workout so it is not as essential as you think to eat a large simple sugar/ high GI meal after training, though it may aid quicker recovery. The rest of the day obviously eat predominantly starchy polysaccharide (low GI, unrefined/ non-processed as much as possible) foods so as to prevent insulin levels rocketing and encouraging fat storage.

- B.A.

[Lady C]

Originally Posted by B.A.

However, constant insulin spikes are not wanted as it encourages lipogenesis and fat storage.

Yes! And it can be bad for those that are predispositioned to becoming diabetic. How much sugar is necessary? Who knows. To eliminate the uncomfortable "crash" and possible fat storage, I have chosen to NOT deliberately add in sugar in my post workout shakes. There is plenty of it in the juices and other fruits you might add. It seems to work fine for me.

[B.A.]

Excellent advise Lady C.

Adult Onset of Diabetes (Type 2), or Diabetes Mellitus, whatever you may want to label it, although some people will be unfortunate enough to develop this condition due to the genetic factor, many of you will be able to avoid this by simply altering your dietary trends and getting that minimum of 30 minutes moderate to intense physical exercise 6 days a week.

The GNC estimates that, on current levels of taxation, the NHS (British) will collapse in 2010 due to the number of people developing Diabetes Mellitus alone, and the cost of treatment for these people. There are links between rising obesity levels and increased cases of diabetes type 2, but look closely and it is due to the number of people with poor nutrition: Too much refined/ processed/ packaged carbohydrates and pure glucose loaded foods and sweets in the diet.

Your body may let you get away with eating this junk in your teens, twenty and thirties, but come later on in life your pancreas will simply say "enough" and you will be unable to produce enough insulin to cope with your excess junk carbohydrate foods. Type 2 for the rest of your life and daily injections for the next X amount of decades, which I'll be forking out for in my taxes.

- B.A.

[abear]

ppl are starting to turn away from insulin spikes. many are using oats pwo and doing fine.

there is some research to support it. i'd have to look for it.

[Jakanden]

Originally Posted by abear

ppl are starting to turn away from insulin spikes. many are using oats pwo and doing fine.

there is some research to support it. i'd have to look for it.

Not many people - the research has been around for quite some time and people are still doing high GI post workout. There was a thread about this recently, just search for it.

[abear]

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.



Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.


i have to admit, i'm not a science person. i've been lifting for over 11 years and i like to rely on real results first. but this stuff is still kinda cool.

[Jakanden]

I never doubted the research was there man. There was no need to post it heh. I said the research has been out for some time but people still choose high GI post workout in general.

[abear]

Originally Posted by Jakanden

I never doubted the research was there man. There was no need to post it heh. I said the research has been out for some time but people still choose high GI post workout in general.

i needed to provide proof to back up what i posted. it's not about proving right or wrong, its about providing information.

i participate on over 20 boards a day. hey, i have a desk job for 8-10 hours a day, what do you expect me to do all this time, work??? get real!!!!

i'm seeing more and more are using grinded oats in the pwo shakes and getting the same if not better results than with sugar. so either way is correct.

nothing beats personal experience. :thumbup:

[CJNY]

These reports are interesting, but the theory I have heard for for a high GI /whey shake after strength training is not aimed at muscle glycogen synthesis but rather that the carbs are included mainly to elicit an insulin response which then makes the muscles more likely to absorb amino acids and synthsize protein.

[abear]

Originally Posted by CJNY

These reports are interesting, but the theory I have heard for for a high GI /whey shake after strength training is not aimed at muscle glycogen synthesis but rather that the carbs are included mainly to elicit an insulin response which then makes the muscles more likely to absorb amino acids and synthsize protein.

thats exactly what i said and this is what i was told:

Dietary strategies to promote glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL.

Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX, USA.

Muscle glycogen is an essential fuel for prolonged intense exercise, and therefore it is important that the glycogen stores be copious for competition and strenuous training regimens. While early research focused on means of increasing the muscle glycogen stores in preparation for competition and its day-to-day replenishment, recent research has focused on the most effective means of promoting its replenishment during the early hours of recovery. It has been observed that muscle glycogen synthesis is twice as rapid if carbohydrate is consumed immediately after exercise as opposed to waiting several hours, and that a rapid rate of synthesis can be maintained if carbohydrate is consumed on a regular basis. For example, supplementing at 30-min intervals at a rate of 1.2 to 1.5 g CHO x kg(-1) body wt x h(-1) appears to maximize synthesis for a period of 4- to 5-h post exercise. If a lighter carbohydrate supplement is desired, however, glycogen synthesis can be enhanced with the addition of protein and certain amino acids. Furthermore, the combination of carbohydrate and protein has the added benefit of stimulating amino acid transport, protein synthesis and muscle tissue repair.Research suggests that aerobic performance following recovery is related to the degree of muscle glycogen replenishment.

tell you the truth, when i found there was studies like this it blew my mind. i didnt learn about stuff like this until about 2 years ago.

[drdjsmm]

Originally Posted by B.A.

Excellent advise Lady C.

Adult Onset of Diabetes (Type 2), or Diabetes Mellitus, whatever you may want to label it, although some people will be unfortunate enough to develop this condition due to the genetic factor, many of you will be able to avoid this by simply altering your dietary trends and getting that minimum of 30 minutes moderate to intense physical exercise 6 days a week.

The GNC estimates that, on current levels of taxation, the NHS (British) will collapse in 2010 due to the number of people developing Diabetes Mellitus alone, and the cost of treatment for these people. There are links between rising obesity levels and increased cases of diabetes type 2, but look closely and it is due to the number of people with poor nutrition: Too much refined/ processed/ packaged carbohydrates and pure glucose loaded foods and sweets in the diet.

Your body may let you get away with eating this junk in your teens, twenty and thirties, but come later on in life your pancreas will simply say "enough" and you will be unable to produce enough insulin to cope with your excess junk carbohydrate foods. Type 2 for the rest of your life and daily injections for the next X amount of decades, which I'll be forking out for in my taxes.

- B.A.

Type 2 DM is not related to insulin production. It is related to the insulin receptors on cells. They don't work as well (reasons-> age, obesity), therefore insulin doesn't do it's job of telling the cell to take in glucose, and blood glucose is elevated. Patients with Type 2 DM don't take insulin injections because they make plenty of insulin, they just can't use it.

In type 1 (juvenile) diabetes, the beta cells of the pancrease are attacked in teenagers by an autoimmune responce, and insulin is not produced, so cells don't know to take in glucose, and blood glucose will be high. These are the patients who use insulin injections.

In responce to Lady C's comments:
"Yes! And it can be bad for those that are predispositioned to becoming diabetic. How much sugar is necessary? Who knows. To eliminate the uncomfortable "crash" and possible fat storage, I have chosen to NOT deliberately add in sugar in my post workout shakes. There is plenty of it in the juices and other fruits you might add. It seems to work fine for me."

Adding sugar to spike insulin post-workout will not predispose anyone to Diabetes Mellitus (DM) because it is "post-workout". These are the people that are healthy and won't get DM. It's the people who are obese and don't eat healthy that will desensitize their insulin receptors and get Type 2 DM.

[B.A.]

"Type 2 DM is not related to insulin production. It is related to the insulin receptors on cells. They don't work as well (reasons-> age, obesity), therefore insulin doesn't do it's job of telling the cell to take in glucose, and blood glucose is elevated. Patients with Type 2 DM don't take insulin injections because they make plenty of insulin, they just can't use it. "

Type 2 is either they do not produce enough insulin (this would come under insulin production, my point), or the insulin produced is faulty (your point). Type 2 diabetes may have an occassional insulin injection if they produce very little insulin for a period of time, though usually they are on a course of medication to help utilise better the insulin that they do produce.

Thankyou for taking the time to go over my post very thoroughly :thumbup:

- B.A.