Pizza...

[vegan]

Originally Posted by etothepii

You mean your body never metabolizes saturated fat?

The body metabolizes saturated fat with more difficulty - so it tends to stick with us longer - leading to the detrimental effects on the body (obesity, heart disease) of consuming excess saturated fat over time.

[CF-OC_gal]

Originally Posted by vegan

The body metabolizes saturated fat with more difficulty - so it tends to stick with us longer - leading to the detrimental effects on the body (obesity, heart disease) of consuming excess saturated fat over time.

I don't think that is the whole or real story! Our body's come equipt with mechanisms for digesting fats. Look at a lot of native diets, especially northern ones. Saturated fat is essential!

Fats are metabolized primarily in the small intestines because the enzymes of the stomach cannot break down fat molecules due to their hydrophobicity. In the small intestines, fat molecules stimulate the release of cholecystokinin (CCK), a small-intestine hormone, into the bloodstream. The CCK in the blood triggers the pancreas to release digestive enzymes that can break down lipids. The gallbladder is also stimulated to secrete bile into the small intestines. Bile acids coat the fat molecules, which results in the formation of small fat globules, which are called micelles. The coating prevents the small fat globules from fusing together to form larger fat molecules, and therefore the small fat globules are more easily absorbed. The pancreatic enzymes can also break down triglycerides into monoglycerides and fatty acids. Once this occurs, the broken-down fat molecules are able to diffuse into the intestinal cells, in which they are converted back to triglycerides, and finally into chylomicrons.

also

The effects of this excess intake of dietary fat has some well-established implications for the health of overweight Americans. For instance, the consumption of excess amounts of saturated fats has been recognized as the most important dietary factor to increase levels of cholesterol. A high cholesterol level is detrimental to health and leads to a condition known as atherosclerosis. Atherosclerosis is the build-up of cholesterol on the walls of arteries, which may eventually result in the blocking of blood flow. When this occurs in the arteries of the heart, it is called coronary artery disease. When this process occurs in the heart, a myocardial infarction, or heart attack, may occur.

http://www.faqs.org/nutrition/Erg-Foo/Fats.html

Health problems from too much saturated fat come from cholesterol formation not because "it sticks with us longer". Exercise is an excellent way to lower cholesterol levels. Some people are also predisposed to heart disease and high cholesterol. Becoming fully informed on the subject matter and knowing your family history of heart disease is your best defense.

[vegan]

Originally Posted by Brat

I don't think that is the whole or real story! Our body's come equipt with mechanisms for digesting fats. Look at a lot of native diets, especially northern ones. Saturated fat is essential!

Health problems from too much saturated fat come from cholesterol formation not because "it sticks with us longer". Exercise is an excellent way to lower cholesterol levels. Some people are also predisposed to heart disease and high cholesterol. Becoming fully informed on the subject matter and knowing your family history of heart disease is your best defense.

Never said modest amounts of saturated fats were not essential. It's excess consumption of fat, in particular saturated fat. The typical American consumes about 40%-45% of calories from fat. In a whole foods, pure vegetarian diet, fat consumption is down in the 10%-15% range. That's up to 30% excess fat, much of which is saturated.

Fat is burned off with exercise but the truth is that most Americans are not exercising nearly enough - present company excepted. Saturated fat metabolizes (converts to energy) more slowly due to its more complex structure (more hydrogen atoms). So excess consumption of saturated fat by the typical American does lead to obesity and to other complications over time, as the article you quote, correctly states:

"The effects of this excess intake of dietary fat has some well-established implications for the health of overweight Americans. For instance, the consumption of excess amounts of saturated fats has been recognized as the most important dietary factor to increase levels of cholesterol. A high cholesterol level is detrimental to health and leads to a condition known as atherosclerosis"

Family history (genetics) plays a very small role - around 5% of the risk of heart disease. Eating and exercise habits of families are learned. So about 95% of the risk of heart disease is lifestyle. Being fully informed is important and consuming a healthy, whole foods diet combined with modest amounts of exercise is the key to avoiding most chronic illnesses.

[arbit]

Originally Posted by vegan

Family history (genetics) plays a very small role - around 5% of the risk of heart disease.

Thats flat out wrong. Genetics plays a bigger role than diet+exercise combined.
For instance, south asians are 15-20 times more likeley to get heart diseases.
And their consumption of animal products is way way lower than caucasians.

[vegan]

Originally Posted by arbit

Thats flat out wrong. Genetics plays a bigger role than diet+exercise combined.
For instance, south asians are 15-20 times more likeley to get heart diseases.
And their consumption of animal products is way way lower than caucasians.

Where are you getting your information?

This is what the World Health Organization says on this subject:

“The real tragedy is that overweight and obesity, and their related chronic diseases, are largely preventable,” said Dr Robert Beaglehole, WHO Director of Chronic Diseases and Health Promotion. "Approximately 80% of heart disease, stroke, and type 2 diabetes, and 40% of cancer could be avoided through healthy diet, regular physical activity and avoidance of tobacco use."

Or Dean Ornish, M.D. who regularly helps patents reverse heart disease states at the World Economic Forum:

• 95% of all heart disease can be "virtually avoided" if people switch from a meat-based to a plant-based diet. This can benefit the old as much as the young.
• There is evidence of a link between the intake of saturated fats and the incidence of many cancers.
• As many as 90% of people with severe chest pains can be largely pain free within a month of changing their diet.

Read what Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., MD of the world renowned Cleveland Clinic Foundation has to say about the prevention through plant-based nutrition as a result of years of study.

http://www.vegsource.com/esselstyn/resolving_cade.htm

T. Colin Campbell, author of ‘The China Study’ found wide variations in chronic diseases within the Chinese population:

"Previous studies relating nutrition to degenerative disease have mostly been limited to consideration of single factors and single diseases. Yet even when large surveys have been taken, they have generally produced mixed results. This is because these studies have largely been conducted in the developed world, where everybody eats more or less the same thing.

The China Project offers a rare opportunity to study disease in a precise manner because of the unique conditions that exist in rural China. Approximately 90% of the people in rural China live their entire lives in the vicinity of their birth. Because of deeply held local traditions and the absence of viable food distribution, people consume diets composed primarily of locally produced foods. In addition, there are dramatic differences in the prevalence of disease from region to region. Various cardiovascular disease rates vary by a factor of about 20-fold from one place to another, while certain cancer rates may vary by several hundredfold."

It has been documented in numerous population studies that when people of the same group move to a different location, over time, they tend to take on the same lifestyle and chronic disease characteristics of the population of their new home.

[arbit]

I shall post links when I have time.
South indians have one of the highest rates of cardio vascular diseases amongst the south asian population. They also have one of the lowest rates of meat consumption. Indeed, most of them are lacto-vegetarians (no eggs, no fish).

Also the statement "95% of all heart disease can be "virtually avoided" if people switch from a meat-based to a plant-based diet" does NOT imply that genetics plays just a 5% role in heart disease. Dr. Ornish's statement was very carefully made. He said nothing about the pople who have good genetics and can do whatever they like, and get away with it.
If you have less than optimal genetics, then diet+exercise needs to be tweaked quite a bit to avoid/delay CVDs. Optimal genetics => can do whatever you want. Genetics dominates.

It has been documented in numerous population studies that when people of the same group move to a different location, over time, they tend to take on the same lifestyle and chronic disease characteristics of the population of their new home.

This is also not quite true. People do change their lifestyle to the new home, but they may get much more severe disesases than the indigenous population. This has been theorised due to a change in diet to which the body(genes) have adapted to.
Eg, south asians in developed nations. There was also this american indian tribe I think which used to live in a desert like area. Over time they switched to a typical US diet and thier incidence of diabetes rose to around 50 times the national average. It was an epidemic.
A group of researchers/doctors then asked people who were willing to switch to their traditional diet (which consisted of desert food with very low glycemic index), and miraculously their blood sugar levels dropped.

Diet IS important, but we must always remember that it must be tweaked to genetics. One formula does not fit all.

[arbit]

For a pro-meat site visit http://www.westonaprice.org/index.html
I'm not a big fan of meat but that site seemed interesting, and legit.

[nerval]

i just ate the pizza hut's jessica simpson pizza (without js, if she was around i would have eaten every single piece); and those jalapenos dots things.

damn they are good.

eat just a slice, that won't do too bad. just don't eat much except that for that day.

[vegan]

Originally Posted by arbit

If you have less than optimal genetics, then diet+exercise needs to be tweaked quite a bit to avoid/delay CVDs. Optimal genetics => can do whatever you want. Genetics dominates.

With this line of thinking everything is genetics. It is genetics that differentiate us from dogs and dogs eat meat and don't get heart disease, so that does prove your point.

However, the rapid rise in heart disease in the USA and in other countries cannot be explained by genetics - genes don't change that fast. While there may be rare individuals who are relatively immune to heart disease, for 99%+ of the population, diet and exercise are the primary factors for preventing CHD. What you seem to be saying is: 'it's my genes and therefore I can't do much about heart disease' when in fact the opposite is true.

[vegan]

Originally Posted by arbit

For a pro-meat site visit http://www.westonaprice.org/index.html
I'm not a big fan of meat but that site seemed interesting, and legit.

Gad - these are the same folks who promote the REAL MILK (raw milk) campaign. There are good reasons the FDA bans raw milk from interstate commerce. Believe this stuff at your own risk.

[arbit]

Originally Posted by vegan

, for 99%+ of the population, diet and exercise are the primary factors for preventing CHD. What you seem to be saying is: 'it's my genes and therefore I can't do much about heart disease' when in fact the opposite is true.

No, what I'm saying is that genes are the major determinant with respect to disease susceptibility. I'm not saying ignore diet. For, diet+exercise are the only things under our control. If u've got sucky genes, even more reason to watch diet, exercise, but they must take genetics into consideration (repeat south asian example)

[arbit]

Originally Posted by vegan

Gad - these are the same folks who promote the REAL MILK (raw milk) campaign. There are good reasons the FDA bans raw milk from interstate commerce. Believe this stuff at your own risk.

Its not a question of "beliving" something or not (I'm not a Bush zealot ). Those folks cite quite a bit of research in their articles. They also seem to give all of their funding sources on thier site. Do u have a paper or study which conclusively proves their claims wrong ?
I had in fact posted a thread about them a while ago on this cite, asking whether they were a hoax or not. There was not one reply which said "they are wrong, and here is the proof for it [cite journal article]"

[vegan]

Originally Posted by arbit

Its not a question of "beliving" something or not (I'm not a Bush zealot ). Those folks cite quite a bit of research in their articles. They also seem to give all of their funding sources on thier site. Do u have a paper or study which conclusively proves their claims wrong ?
I had in fact posted a thread about them a while ago on this cite, asking whether they were a hoax or not. There was not one reply which said "they are wrong, and here is the proof for it [cite journal article]"

They do make a lot of claims, some of which may be accurate and others not. I would be happy to respond to any specific claim they make that you find appropriate for this forum.

With most issues of diet and health you can find studies on both sides of the position taken, so you need some insight into the underlying research to sort out the facts. Your recent post about the report on the Women's Health Initiative is an excellent example of that. The blogger (and much of the media) took the headlines on the study at face value without any understanding of low-fat diets, so it's no wonder the general public is terribly confused about diet and health.

[vegan]

Originally Posted by arbit

No, what I'm saying is that genes are the major determinant with respect to disease susceptibility. I'm not saying ignore diet. For, diet+exercise are the only things under our control. If u've got sucky genes, even more reason to watch diet, exercise, but they must take genetics into consideration (repeat south asian example)

From what I have read, this issue has to do with south Asians who moved overseas to the UK, and adopted the western diet and lacked exercise. Once they moved to the UK they had an even higher rate of heart disease than the general public. Their gene's didn't change, so it appears that the change in diet and exercise triggered heart disease. From the UK Department of Health:

"Coronary heart disease (CHD) is a preventable disease that kills more than 110,000 people in England every year. More than 1.4 million people suffer from angina and 275,000 people have a heart attack annually. CHD is the biggest killer in the country. The Government is committed to reducing the death rate from coronary heart disease and stroke and related diseases in people under 75 by at least 40% (to 83.8 deaths per 100,000 population) by 2010."

The moral to this story is that diet and exercise are the main factors regardless of genes: the genes are a given; diet and exercise are the variables with the prevalence of heart disease determined primarily by the type of diet and the amount of exercise. Why should genes be taken into consideration at all? Regardless of genes, the typical Western meat and dairy centered diet, combined with lack of exercise is a prescription for the development of heart disease and other chronic illnesses.

[CF-OC_gal]

I'm siding with arbit on this discussion. You can make the best of your situation by living/ eating right, but your situation is determined/limited by your genes.

You know - there is a lot of attention right now on the Inuit people of Canada's North and how diabetes is almost epidemic. Their traditional diet was raw meat and saturated animal fat. Diabetes was unheard of in those days.

By the way, the local university here which collects information about recreational fitness in everyday people (not athletes) has found that while diet and exercise will improve your fitness levels (heart health), the amount of improvement a person can make is also genetically determined. Some people level out and pushing for more exercise does not result in better heart health! We are not all equal.