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Old 16-Oct-06, 05:08 PM   #1
iloveher86
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Salads make you big and strong? True or is it a myth?


EAT MEAT ITS WHATS FOR DINNER, not salad
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Old 16-Oct-06, 05:35 PM   #2
Lady C
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Depends . . .


The size and strength of your muscles depend on three factors: heredity, exercise, and diet.

Despite popular opinion, you do not need large amounts of protein to build muscles. Your muscles are only 22 percent protein and more than 70 percent water. A growing athlete only needs about 1/2 to 1 gram of protein for each pound of body weight. So an athlete who weighs 150 pounds needs about 75 grams of protein. Protein is protein regardless of the source. Meat based protein contains fats that are not found in plant based protiens. As long as you consume all the essential amino acids your body will grow the same with either diet.

It's a nutritional myth that you have to eat muscle to make muscle. Vegetarians who eat fish, dairy products, and/or eggs get plenty of protein, and even a strict vegan can get enough protein by eating enough grains and legumes, which provide a feeling of fullness, along with the necessary quantity and quality of protein. Each day one can get all the protein they need from an egg, a peanut butter sandwich, a couple glasses of milk, a cup of yogurt, or a black bean burrito.

Completing the Protein Puzzle
It used to be thought that different kinds of plant foods had to be eaten together at the same meal in order to get a "complete protein" (meaning all the essential amino acids; see protein terms). This turned being a vegetarian into a nutritional jigsaw puzzle. Which pieces fit together? Nutritionists have now decided that the body is smart enough to combine proteins on its own. The body takes in all the plant proteins consumed in a day and puts the amino acid puzzle together to build the complete proteins that it needs.

Decide for yourself.
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The question to explore here is: Why do we all believe that we must eat meat to get enough protein?

Let’s go back many years ago to the year 1914.

In 1914, two men by the names of Osborn and Mendel experimented with rats. They discovered that rats grew faster when they ate protein from animal foods than when they ate protein from plant foods.

Based on this information, these two men classified meat protein as class “A” protein and plant protein as class “B” protein. Those classifications automatically categorized animal protein as superior to plant protein. To this day, many Americans still believe that animal protein is superior to plant protein.
In fact, the difference was the added fat that Class A ate made them fatter not more muscular.

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Today, the World Health Organization and many experts in the field of human nutrition tell us that human beings only need 4.5% protein in their diets for health and fitness, and overall well-being, and that plenty of protein can be sourced by plant foods alone.

After all, even oranges have 8% protein, Romaine lettuce 36% protein, and brown rice 8% protein.

The experts also tell us that animal protein is not superior to plant protein. In fact, animal protein is related to many chronic, debilitating diseases that end life prematurely. That is the animal protein alone in animal products. Add fat, cholesterol, hormones, and antibiotics to the mix and that makes meat of all kinds less than the ideal food for human nutrition.
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Last edited by Lady C; 16-Oct-06 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 16-Oct-06, 10:00 PM   #3
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That was an excellent post, Lady C. In fact, the first question most people ask me when they find out I don't eat animal products is, 'where do you get your protein'?
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Old 17-Oct-06, 10:30 AM   #4
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I can't say I agree with you LadyC. From my experience, most who are attempting to gain size and strength will make much more progress on high protein diets than those who's protein intake remains low (i.e. the 0.5-1 g/lb bodyweight).

Personally, I never really started to make progress until I bumped my protein up around 2g/lb. How can I be sure that it was not the overall caloric increase you say? Well, previously do bumping my protein intake, I had been consuming almost the exact same number of calories, but the majority came from carbs. I went from a 220/550 protein/carb split to a 450/275 while keeping my fats about the same. The difference was night an day. I get sore far less frequently, and I am training harder than I ever used to.

When you put your body through so much punishment, and tear down your muscles to the degree that many pro athletes/bodybuilders/powerlifters do, you need an abundance of amino acids to help repair all that damage.

I tend to notice that the guys toting that you only need 1g/lb of bodyweight are the skinny 150lb guys who can barely squat their own bodyweight.

I will agree that for most people who are simply interested in general health & fitness, and shedding a few unwanted pounds, extreme protein is not really necessary, and there are a few genetic freaks out there that can eat nothing but candy bars and pizza and still get huge (there's a guy like that at my gym).

I'm much more likely to base my opinions on the experience of myself and others than on what a scientist tells me "should" happen based on an experiment performed on rats in a controlled laboratory environment.
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Old 17-Oct-06, 10:39 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by F-Mac

I'm much more likely to base my opinions on the experience of myself and others than on what a scientist tells me "should" happen based on an experiment performed on rats in a controlled laboratory environment.
And that is why science is a good starting point. Then we take what we've learned and go listen to others who've accomplished something. Fat loss, muscle building, strength gains... whatever we wish to accomplish. Get multiple opinions and methods, use the science to calculate based on what they did, what we want to try...

Then make a plan and stick to it. Heavy weight, low reps, high protein. Light weight, high reps, low protein. Mix of high and low reps, light and heavy weight, moderate protein... Just pick something stick with it until you see if it worked for your goals. If it didn't work or didn't work enough - try something different.

Opinions and experience from others are like science in the fact that they are useful learning tools, but in the end the only experience that matters is the experience that worked for you. The only way to get that is figure out what you want to try - and try it. Then try something else - then something else.

Once you know what works for you, ride it as far as it takes you.

That's how I staggered into what I'm doing now with some small degree of success. Now I know how to apply it to my skinnyassedweakashellsoftandflabby body to get small and gradual results. All I need now is to go from 200lbs of what I am to 300lbs of muscle, drop 5% more body fat - and I'll be all set.

Anyone actually figure out how to do that - please share.

Last edited by .V.; 17-Oct-06 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 17-Oct-06, 11:53 AM   #6
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As I noted before F-mac
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Originally Posted by Lady C
The size and strength of your muscles depend on three factors: heredity, exercise, and diet.
Everyone is unique. My point was PROTEIN is PROTEIN; Plant based or animal based. You can still build muscle with whatever ratio works for you - as welch points out!
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Old 17-Oct-06, 12:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady C
Despite popular opinion, you do not need large amounts of protein to build muscles.
This was what I was arguing, the amino acids that you get from protein are what your muscles are made of. I was arguing mainly that for most, if you want to optimize muscle building, a lot of protein is needed.

IME more people do better on high protein (muscle building wise) than those on low to moderate protein diets.

Plant based proteins are not complete proteins (animal based are complete), but if you combine several different plant based sources (i.e. rice and beans for example) then you can definitely reap the same benefits as animal based protein.
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Old 17-Oct-06, 12:39 PM   #8
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yea at least 400 grams a day
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Old 17-Oct-06, 03:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iloveher86
EAT MEAT ITS WHATS FOR DINNER, not salad
Why not have both meat and salad? I usually do. There's room in my stomach for both!
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Old 17-Oct-06, 03:32 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by LiftGirl
Why not have both meat and salad? I usually do. There's room in my stomach for both!
That is a fine idea right there. I think I'll have a rib-eye with my salad tonight. Maybe a baked potato too.
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Old 17-Oct-06, 04:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by a_welch503
That is a fine idea right there. I think I'll have a rib-eye with my salad tonight. Maybe a baked potato too.
Sounds tasty to me, except I don't like ribeye. Give me a NY strip!
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Old 17-Oct-06, 07:51 PM   #12
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Ok lets talk about protein quality.

Wasn't there a rating scale developed that measured the availability or absorbability of EAAs from a variety of dairy, meat, fish and vegetable sources? Isn't that the scale that rated whey and eggs as the best quality protein when it comes to being available for use by the body?

I'm sorry but I have a lazy-assed digestive system and it's only getting lazier as I get older (it's making some pretty fine benign tumors from muscle tissue when I eat the protein I do - but that's another story). I don't have enough time or energy in the day to eat all the vegetables it would take to satisfy my protein and iron needs! I might as well get a job eating if I was to do that.

There's also the fact that all that fibre starts to work against my efforts to take in nutrients from vegetable sources. In fact it scoots it out faster than I can take any goodness from it!

Meat, fish and dairy and I suppose soy (but not too much, too frequently) are good condensed forms of protein for me. I can get a lot with little effort to consume it. I just plain get bored with eating and my interest in food shuts down when it takes forever to get through a big delicious plate of ....vegetables.
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Old 19-Oct-06, 08:04 AM   #13
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Yup salads are never anything but a side dish for me
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