What is a good fullbody workout item?

[riseboi]

Originally Posted by IronMan

I would keep in mind the intent with kettlebells is to build functional strength, not maximum power output. So, at least in my opinion, having a bit of movement in one's core will actually help to strengthen it. Of course, I could be full of crapola too......

I totally agree, however, the thing I have the most issue with is that there is too much movement in the "core" so to speak. IMO, he is using his back to do too much of the work. There is not nearly as much knee and hip flexion as there should be. I love working with kettlebells, but with this type of ballistic movement, quality far outweighs quantity especially when it comes to injury prevention.

Seeing as how I haven't studied the art of kettlebell use, I really can't say with authority one way or the other. My impression is the "plane of movement" is unique to this type of training. Yes, the movements are ballistic, but the weight is relatively light compared to most other forms of weightlifting. Does this logic hold water? I'd be interested in what Pavel, Mahler, and other KB experts have to say on the subject. Maybe some day I'll purchase their books/dvd's to find out first hand.

Can you expand on your critique that there is too much back use and not enough knee and hip flexion? Like you, I'm not trying to start anything, just trying to learn what I can on the subject. If you could post some links too, that would be very helpful.

[.V.]

All I can say about it is that to the best of my knowledge, Dan C spends much less time injured than I. I try to always use "proper form" with everything and the way I understand it, he just makes his body strong as a unit so form isn't so specific as with other training.

I don't train that way, and our philosophies are quite different...but there is no arguing with the results of that kind of training.

[WolBarret]

Originally Posted by Dan C

I would have to agree with WolBarret on many levels. Though if it's not practical for you to have a barbell in your home, 1 or 2 kettlebells can replace the need for many, many pieces of equipment, and they take up virtually no room at all.

www.bemoretraining.com/vids/jesskb.wmv

www.bemoretraining.com/vids/kettlebell2.wmv

Show off.....good song selection though.

[riseboi]

For me I always fall back on the good old adage, "Lift with your legs, not with your back." This is not to say that you shouldn't work the back, but the majority of the "drive" should come from the quads, hams, glutes, and even the calves to an extent. This can be accomplished by flexing the knee and hip joint (bending the legs while also bending at the hips to stay vertical). I also think of it this way... say that there is a pencil on the ground in front of you. And in this case, a few feet in front of you. If you wanted to try and pick it up would it be safer to bend over at the back to try and reach it? Or would it be safer to bend down at the knees and hips to reach it?

Here are a few videos I found. (there are tons). The first one is okay but it shows a good demonstration of bending at knee and hips to drive help drive up the weight. The second one is another pretty good example. The movement is also very smooth and fluid.

YouTube - Kettlebell basics

YouTube - KettlebellAthletics.com Kettlebell Snatch

I hope this helps explain why I have issue with the form. Again, I'm no expert and not certified in kettlebells, but I do feel that I have a good understanding of body mechanics and what types of movements can put a person at risk for injury.

[riseboi]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

All I can say about it is that to the best of my knowledge, Dan C spends much less time injured than I. I try to always use "proper form" with everything and the way I understand it, he just makes his body strong as a unit so form isn't so specific as with other training.

I don't train that way, and our philosophies are quite different...but there is no arguing with the results of that kind of training.

Fair enough, but I would also counter that sometimes what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander. I faintly remember reading an article recently that commented on how the physical therapy industry "boom" "coincidently" came along at the same time as the the craze in health/fitness. I certainly have my theories as to why.

I would say for basic weightlifting you are spot on as far as form is concerned, riseboi. And those vidoes were informative, yet very basic. Juggling a kb (such as what Dan posted) is a lot more involved than either of those two videos. It takes a tremendous amount of core strength, agility, and athleticism to juggle well over 100 pounds of cast iron.

I could see the benefit of starting out with perfect form while learning how to use kb's in a fitness/strength quest. But there should come a point where you want to, even have to, advance past that -- and build extraordinary strength. Juggling would be dangerous for an improperly trained and conditioned person - absolutely. But for an advanced user I think that juggling kb's are best for developing that kind of injury preventing strength. And it wouldn't surprise me if Dan said he started out with lighter kettlebells until he was conditioned enough to handle the heavier weights and the stresses they put on the body.

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by IronMan

Ya know, Dan, I like you and have tremendous respect for what you do with weights --- but I'll take the hot chick's video over yours any day!

She's a little easier on the eyes than me, I know.

I'll send my wife your regards.

As for the kettlestack and similar loadable KB's, they'd be good for swings, but not cleans, snatches, etc.

[Dan C]

As far as the juggling clip is concerned, I don't deny less than perfect form in the cleans and snatches, but that tends to happen when you're snatching in one hand and juggling in the other. That was just me screwing around, I assure you I can demonstrate (and teach) proper form.

The purpose of me posting those videos was to show the original poster all the different things you can do with a kettlebell, not just to "show off". Sharing, rather than showing... either way, there's enough 6 minute clips on the internet of guys doing swings.

I would like to make these comments though...

- Lifting with the back is not bad, otherwise there would be no such thing as a good morning, stiff leg deadlift, zercher, etc. You can't lift a stone, sandbag, or any other odd object with just your legs. There is a wrong way and a right way to lift with your back. Whether or not my technique was right or wrong may be debatable, but I can tell you I was well within my capabilities.

- The force production in a swing comes from the posterior chain and has very little to do with the quads, as the knees are not supposed to bend much. And it is impossible to "use the back" in a swing if you are not bending at the hips.

[.V.]

Originally Posted by Dan C

She's a little easier on the eyes than me, I know.

A little?

Dan - I'm going to start using kettlebells in addition to my regular workout. What do you recommend that I read in order to get started properly?