Back Hurts

[gymgirl]

Originally Posted by Brat

I'd alternate with front squats or hack squats to fry the quads.

I agree, why squat with bad form (heals elevated is bad form)

[Khaine]

Originally Posted by Brat

I'd alternate with front squats or hack squats to fry the quads.

Front Squats should be a staple exercise anyways, and Hack Squats limit the weight too much...

I disagree that it's bad form... It's a whole other exercise... It's no different from doing Neck Presses in place of bench for a cycle... Or doing Dips with elbows out... Or cheating the weight up to focus on the eccentric...

[.V.]

Well, dog isn't here to join the discussion anymore. But I'm going to throw in my $.02. I don't think heels elevated is bad form. There are times it is helpful if doing a somewhat narrow stance squat, just a bit wider than the shoulders (instep in line with outside of deltoid), going very deep and keeping the knees out.

Times it's good are - hams are fried from previous work and you want to concentrate on quads.

One has an instability or lack of mobility and elevation helps as a "crutch" for this until they can improve mobility and stability.

And crutches aren't always bad. I used a belt around my knees to give me something to push against so I could learn to keep them out.

About the heel elevation - why do you think they make specialty lifting shoes? I'm going to get some, but for now am squatting with my heels down in flat shoes.

[gymgirl]

I thought lifting the heals when squatting is bad mechanics, due to lack of hamstring flexability. Instead of continuting to use the crutch, why not work on improving hamstring flexability? Also shouldn't you be driving form your heals when squatting? It seems like lifting your heals would cause you to drive through your toes/front of foot.

[.V.]

Yes GG, it is, but prevents actually going up on the toes while improving that flexibility. By having the heels up a bit with something under them it can allow the person to actually drive down through the heels instead of leaning forward and getting on the toes - moving towards injury.

But this is only a step on the way of improving hamstring flexablity.

Granted, I'm no trainer and speak only from personal knowledge gained from the many ways I've found to hurt myself and the ways I found to not hurt myself in the same manner again.

Most knowledgable people about lifting, especially real trainers probably disagree with me. And most of the real bodybuilders(only a few of them) and the even fewer olympic lifters I've met, know, or have talked to in person would disagree with those "in the know" because each of them use lifting shoes to keep the heels up.

[Khaine]

Right, it's kinda important to point out that I'm referring to placing the heels on an elevated surface, not squatting on your toes...

[gymgirl]

Originally Posted by Khaine

Right, it's kinda important to point out that I'm referring to placing the heels on an elevated surface, not squatting on your toes...

I knew that was what you were referring to. And I know people stand on something elevated because most of the time they can't squat and keep their heels down. My point was why not work on hamstring flexability...that's all i was trying to say.

Thanks welch for the info. I've probably gotten that in my head from my trainer. He wouldn't really let me use any sort of crutch, if I was squatting with my heals comming up, he'd make me just stop until I could do it correctly. same thing with depth, if I'm not going ATG it dosen't count...it's just the way I was taught.

[.V.]

And a good point it is gymgirl. I agree, doing it right is best. But if doing it right will lead to injury, drop the weight and use a safety device. If that device happens to be shoes with lifting heels, then use it.

But I totally agree, that hammy flexability is important. Actually proper flexability in the whole body is needed.

[CF-OC_gal]

We have lots of trainers out there, if any of you are lurking on this one, care to share...

trainerty, trainerbob, sarahPT, most muscle, dan C....et al

[gymgirl]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

And a good point it is gymgirl. I agree, doing it right is best. But if doing it right will lead to injury, drop the weight and use a safety device. If that device happens to be shoes with lifting heels, then use it.

But I totally agree, that hammy flexability is important. Actually proper flexability in the whole body is needed.

I see your point too welch. Now I am curious and interested in hearing more of what other trainers would say. I personally (because I was taught this way) would never have thought to drop the weight and use something like lifting shoes. Interesting stuff.

[arbit]

I took a university class who was doing his PhD (or masters ?) in physical education related field. He taught us front squats on our toes. When I mentioned about heels being flat on ground, and knees not extending beyond toes, he said there is a surprising amount of misconception about this in the world. I assume since he is doing grad studies in PT that he knows what he is talking about.
He did say to avoid leg extensions, as they place a lot of shear stress on the knees.

[Khaine]

Right, and as I've been pointing out to the point of tediousness, I'm not suggesting using it as a crutch, or from not being able to perform a proper squat, or due to lack of flexibility... I'm merely proposing it as an alternative leg workout, to try something new, keep things fresh, murder your damn quads...

I did high rep heels elevated squats once a week for 6 weeks (on top of my regular squats, mind you) and got some VMO development as a result (Woohoo)... I still consider Olympic style Back Squats and Front Squats my main leg tools, but that 6-week cycle sure as hell didn't hurt me...

Blahh...