Deadlift choice - help me decide

[.V.]

Originally Posted by Maxgain

If Im not looking like Jay Cutler after 2 weeks the workout is bogus time to change

I couldn't look like Jay Cutler or any of that ilk in 2 decades, let alone 2 weeks...not that I'd want to.

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Anyway, I've ordered a belt - that may be part of the problem. I prefer to lift without it, but I also prefer not to get hurt. I used a borrowed belt last workout and was able to squat and deadlift seemingly endlessly without injury.

Out of curiosity, why do you want to lift with a belt? (I know I'll probably get slammed by several people here for suggesting you do not lift with a belt,...but hey,...)

External supportive devices are "neat" (note slight sarcasm there), because you "can do more" with them on,....(Caveat: Advanced powerlifting aside, I'm referring to the average lifter).

External supports, like knee braces, elbow braces, and back braces, provide a false sense of security which "let's" you lift more than you could without it. But the load you can lift without a belt is telling you something,....it's saying: If you lift more than this, the supportive and connective tissues cannot handle this load safely. The brace is a false splint, a crutch, and when you lift more than your body can handle without it, all your connective tissues and stabilizers cannot adapt, they don't have to. You alter your body mechanics because you "feel safe" in that belt.

I would personally build up your own girdle of muscle tissue to create a strong core, and lift accordingly. I've seen so many people get injured worse using braces because those devices fake you out into thinking you "can" lift more. The ONLY reason you're lifting more is BECAUSE of the brace (think about that),...which means your natural body is not capable, prepared, or ready to handle the loads you just put it under.

If your doctor is recommending you wear something like a four-pull or eight-pull lumbosacral brace for other reasons, that's one thing. That, is a different thing, not related to lifting.

[.V.]

You'll not get slammed by me for that one. I've trained exclusively raw for 3 years now. No belts, no wraps, no spotters. I do believe that if I can't get the weight on my own it isn't my weight and I have no business lifting it - including no handoff on the bench press. My squatting is done free out of a cage, stuff like that.

However, now that I'm getting injuries from it it's time to re-evaluate that and use some safety equipment. Move the rack in, add the safety bars, use a belt for some support on my working sets - at least on the last working set.

I'm simply at the age and disease progression that I can't risk a disk injury if something goes right.

Note I called it safety equipment - I've been discussing with some powerlifters about the equipment and which is for safety and which is for assistance to take them beyond what the body could do once the body has reached it's limit of potential for improvement.

Apparently the older ideas like a belt, the single ply briefs for hip/pelvic support are safety equipment - used on heaviest lifts and heaviest workouts only. The other stuff is for much more advanced people than me and to be perfectly honest I don't truly understand it - but still think if it helps them get stronger without getting hurt - it's a good thing.

I still don't actually have my own belt. I'm getting an Izner lever belt though.

Right now, the one I'm sort of using is worn a little loose attached with a buckle and velcro - not really for the gym, it's for using on the ambulance when we have a 600 pounder to move...they never have room to get a cherry picker into the house with them.

On medical advice - for safety, I'm using my rib belt (another leftover from a left arm collapse doing tate presses using 72lb dumbells - the arm forgot to work - oops) as a reminder to keep good form - it's there, provides pressure, reminds me to keep my hips, pelvis, spine in the right place but gives no support to speak of, then for my last set when I'm tired, I put on the lifting belt, just don't tighten it down the lever belt will when I get it...I probably won't wear it super tight either - my core muscles still have to do the work, just need a bit of help to stay "right" so that I don't hurt myself.

[luke.w]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

You'll not get slammed by me for that one. I've trained exclusively raw for 3 years now. No belts, no wraps, no spotters. I do believe that if I can't get the weight on my own it isn't my weight and I have no business lifting it - including no handoff on the bench press. My squatting is done free out of a cage, stuff like that.

Move the rack in, add the safety bars,

using the safety pins in a powerrack have nothing really to do with being raw or not (or all you), it's called being smart/safe.

[luke.w]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

The other stuff is for much more advanced people than me

to be perfectly honest I don't truly understand it

but still think if it helps them get stronger without getting hurt - it's a good thing.

you sure about that????

[.V.]

Originally Posted by luke.w

using the safety pins in a powerrack have nothing really to do with being raw or not (or all you), it's called being smart/safe.

yeah, so I've learned.

Like I said before - when I squat, bench, or whatever else - I want it to be "all me". But there comes a time when I just have to get over that and look into safety. I'm still not willing to have someone doing upright rows and me call it a bench press. But if I give out, I'll let the bars catch the weight instead of struggling it up and getting hurt or just toss it if I have to.

About the safety equipment - I honestly still don't know enough about it. I still say that if others want to use it or whatever equipment they feel makes them better or safer - they should go for it. For myself, I'm going to give limited equipment an honest shot - starting with a belt. If it helps reduce my liklihood of injury I'll keep using it, if it doesn't then I wont.

I was seriously considering knee wraps and actually wrapped three workouts ago. They weren't for me. They were allowing me to squat more weight than I could safely handle - even though I didn't get hurt - putting up way bigger numbers than I can do raw because my knees were wrapped (OK, just 25 lbs, but for me - that's a lot). However, if my knees ever give me any trouble whatsoever - I'll certainly invest in some knee sleeves. When the recovery time is over and I'm back to lifting heavy, I may once again reconsider other equipment and see if it has a place for me. I know it certainly has a valuable place for others and may be needed for me at some point in the future.

[.V.]

On another note - kind of back on topic (damn, I hijacked my own thread).

I did CDL last workout, but did it the way I see others doing it on the "how to" videos. Which put me about 1/2 way between my SLDL and my regular conventional deadlift.

The way I start my deadlifts most of the time is to actually put my butt to my heels at the bottom then make my pull from a "full squat" position, dragging the bar up my shins. This is quite possibly why I get hurt from deadlifting that way - because pulling like this there is a definite transition from where the quads are doing most of the work and to where the low back is doing it...for me, this translates into SI injury when I reach the same point on the way back down.

This time I did it from not quite that deep but still quite a bit more knee bend than in a SLDL. This seems to let my quads, glutes, hams, and back all take an equal part in the lift from the beginning, and with the quads and glutes controlling the decent more instead of it going from back/glutes - to quads on the way back down. That is my injury point, by eliminating that transition as much as possible - so far, so good (of course this is done with lighter weights). Perhaps my strict attention to "good form" was my mistake??

[Merrida]

Welch, I'm with you, and don't mean to imply I'm not when it comes to safety. You read my history and are aware to a degree of my spine problems. I, too, need to take care re: SI involvement, so add that to our shared list of things we both work around.

I do DL's as well, -- I doubt I'll ever do them as heavy (by sake of relative comparison) as the rest of my lifts (I like to lift hard and heavy too). And, I am extremely rigid and tight re: my form.

If you lift from the floor, if you're on the floor too or on a platform, you're right, it's that deep flexion that is risky, -- I'm guessing you have to round your back to initiate the lift and that rounding while lifting from deep flexion can torque your lumbosacral/pelvic region. Use a rack. Don't risk it.

I love DL's but I'm not proving a thing to myself by trying to lift from the floor. I'd rather lift from the rack and focus on my hips, glutes and hams and upper back/traps and shoulders,....than load my lumbar spine.

[.V.]

I'm pretty sure I'm not rounding my back but tomorrow morning, I'll have someone come by and check my form. I try to maintain an actual arch instead of letting it flatten out, but it is possible that I'm letting it slip a little.

I also think I know what you are saying about safety regarding the "belt" question. I've always heard that if one relies on a belt while lifting that the spinal erectors and other supporting musculature will weaken from disuse. I always kind of agreed and figured one should work totally raw up to a point where it becomes dangerous then reduce the risk by using safety equipment (belt) for the rest of the workout. I just honestly didn't think that with the laughable poundage of my "heavy" lifts that I was anywhere near the point that I'd need it.

Originally Posted by Maxgain

If Im not looking like Jay Cutler after 2 weeks the workout is bogus time to change

lol "I don't care who you are - thats funny right there"

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by IronMan

lol "I don't care who you are - thats funny right there"

"Get 'er done!"

[rufiedog]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Hmmm, the trap bar deads is a thought that keeps re-curring to me from time to time.

I've never actually done them because I don't have one.

The gym that is 11 miles from here however does have one and they said I could come try it out.

Although I'm not a powerlifter (a real one because I end up hurt every time I try it). I'm still interested in strength training over just pure size training.

I'm using this program for a recovery program to take me back slowly and safely to doing heavy poundages again.

I just found out that the gym over there actually is powerlifter freindly - they have two former US olympic team members that train there - and when the owner found out that old manager was complaining about them dropping bars from shoulder to floor or dropping the bar after a deadlift, bitching about bent bars and cracks in the floor... you get the idea - they fired her and bought better bars, heavier racks and rubber mats for the floor. They told me I can come "play" with the equipment from time to time and if I wish to join on a monthly basis - have myself a winter training home. Wow - somewhere to train when I get back to the heavy stuff without getting hurt.

Playtime visits are only $5.00/day. Stay as long as you like and no one gripes if you have to drop a bar.

The trap bar dead lift offers more control over which muscles are involved. This is true with the straight bar too, but not as much. It’s hard to get away from a lot of lower back involvement while performing straight bar dead lifts.

While performing TBDL, if I keep the weight over the heel (or back half of the foot) the movement is very close to the squat (although a bit more lower back is still involved). If however the weight is distributed over the middle of the foot, the lift almost feels like a straight bar dead lift. Not that I ever distribute the weight over the middle of the foot, but the point is it offers some control that the straight bar dead lift cant offer.

I think you will like it

Dan

[Maxgain]

Originally Posted by Merrida

But the load you can lift without a belt is telling you something,....it's saying: If you lift more than this, the supportive and connective tissues cannot handle this load safely. The brace is a false splint, a crutch, and when you lift more than your body can handle without it, all your connective tissues and stabilizers cannot adapt, they don't have to. You alter your body mechanics because you "feel safe" in that belt.
.

I use a belt for heavy lift I dont lift any heavier than i would without it but Im not taking a chance with my back on that slight chance something happens to my lift,