Deadlift choice - help me decide

[.V.]

This is mostly a question for anyone who's done HST...or any expereinced bodybuilder like Todd or MostMuscle who really understands how the body works - but anyone's input is welcome. Ironman, you do full body stuff - I'd like your opinion too.

Hey guys, ya'll know about my recent illness and injury. Thankfully the injury is minor - not serious. However it seems to be chronic in nature - it keeps happening again and again, healing within a week.

This is interfering with workouts so I'm currently forced to do light weight workouts with more volume to make up for not lifting heavy. The PT says I can gradually work my way back to heavy weights over a couple of months, but not to go light for a week, feel better, then jump right into heavy again (re-injury).

I've decided to start doing HST as a recovery program - the PT approves, the doc approves - because it starts light with relatively high volume then gets heavier. Lightens up and work to heavier again - ending with some low volume, heavy work at the end of 8 weeks.

If I can't lift heavy weights, I may as well get some benefit from it.

Now I have a question about it. The HST site says for the leg portion of the workout to do squats then a hamstring exercise - leg curls or SLDL from my understanding of it. To me, the SLDL seems to work the hams and even more my lower back but doesn't hurt it. So this will likely be my choice for the leg work. But I was wondering, a deadlift is a deadlift - it works the legs and back no matter how you look at it, just with a slightly different focus on what part is doing most of the work. For this program would it be a bad thing to do conventional deadlifts in place of SLDL? I'd prefer to do conventional, but I also know enough that if a program works a certain way - don't go changing it around too much.

[Maxgain]

I have done this programme with success the specific exercises are not important but the principles that are being followed.
Use whatever compound movements you find cover the whole body without overlapping too much on one group and you have got it.

I have been using HST for the past few months and am finding that I like it very much. I hadn't planned on commenting on it until I was past my 3rd cycle on it, but you have forced my hand, Andy, lol. I'm halfway into my second cycle and am finding the results very satisfying.

One change that I have made (per Haycock's suggestions on his site) is to the rep scheme. Each week I drop my reps by a couple rather than the 5 every two weeks that they outline. 14, 12, 10, 8, etc. This has worked out very well and the gradual increases in weight are not overwhelming. Considering your injury it might be a great option for you.

As to your direct question, I have to agree with Max. If your basic groups are covered then you are good to go. If the SLDL are working without aggravating your injury then use them - no question!

One thing to me about deads and squats: they are very simiilar exercises. You could choose one or the other, or even use a combination of the two by getting a trap bar. I'm sure this statement might raise a few eyebrows or possibly get hooted off the board, but it is my opinion and like butt holes, everyone has one, lol.

I'm going to be out of town until Sunday so please be gentle to me in my absence!

[luke.w]

Originally Posted by IronMan

One thing to me about deads and squats: they are very simiilar exercises. You could choose one or the other, or even use a combination of the two by getting a trap bar. I'm sure this statement might raise a few eyebrows or possibly get hooted off the board, but it is my opinion and like butt holes, everyone has one, lol.

I'm with ya, I don't believe to choose one over the other forever, but I feel eithier althernating every week or every few months are fine, I know that sometimes I won't deadlift for months, and choose all squat variations and come back to deadlift better stronger, and just feel excited about it.......vise versa.

also platform deads are great quad hitters platform trapbar deads also.

[.V.]

Hmmm, the trap bar deads is a thought that keeps re-curring to me from time to time.

I've never actually done them because I don't have one.

The gym that is 11 miles from here however does have one and they said I could come try it out.

Although I'm not a powerlifter (a real one because I end up hurt every time I try it). I'm still interested in strength training over just pure size training.

I'm using this program for a recovery program to take me back slowly and safely to doing heavy poundages again.

I just found out that the gym over there actually is powerlifter freindly - they have two former US olympic team members that train there - and when the owner found out that old manager was complaining about them dropping bars from shoulder to floor or dropping the bar after a deadlift, bitching about bent bars and cracks in the floor... you get the idea - they fired her and bought better bars, heavier racks and rubber mats for the floor. They told me I can come "play" with the equipment from time to time and if I wish to join on a monthly basis - have myself a winter training home. Wow - somewhere to train when I get back to the heavy stuff without getting hurt.

Playtime visits are only $5.00/day. Stay as long as you like and no one gripes if you have to drop a bar.

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by IronMan

I have been using HST for the past few months and am finding that I like it very much. I hadn't planned on commenting on it until I was past my 3rd cycle on it, but you have forced my hand, Andy, lol. I'm halfway into my second cycle and am finding the results very satisfying.

One change that I have made (per Haycock's suggestions on his site) is to the rep scheme. Each week I drop my reps by a couple rather than the 5 every two weeks that they outline. 14, 12, 10, 8, etc. This has worked out very well and the gradual increases in weight are not overwhelming. Considering your injury it might be a great option for you.

As to your direct question, I have to agree with Max. If your basic groups are covered then you are good to go. If the SLDL are working without aggravating your injury then use them - no question!

One thing to me about deads and squats: they are very simiilar exercises. You could choose one or the other, or even use a combination of the two by getting a trap bar. I'm sure this statement might raise a few eyebrows or possibly get hooted off the board, but it is my opinion and like butt holes, everyone has one, lol.

I'm going to be out of town until Sunday so please be gentle to me in my absence!

What results have you gotten exactly?

[.V.]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

What results have you gotten exactly?

I was wondering the same thing. Now that the cat is out of the bag - we do expect pictures when you finish your 3rd cycle of HST. Stats too.

Ya'll know me, I'll post the visual evidence of success or failure - it can be an idea to go ahead and try something or a warning to stay far, far away. The way I'm currently eating, I'm afraid at the end I'll look like my original before pic - but we'll see - I do feel a bit better after a month of eating a lot more.

[ebon00]

I'm with Ironman on this, if you do HST you'll end up doing squats and deadlifts on the same day if I remember the program and that's a bit too much to take. I would personally go for the SLDL's for now to focus more on the hamstrings than on the quads which take a lot more work with regular deadlifts.

And if you keep getting injured you're not really "healing in a week". Basically what you've been doing is stupid. Let it rest for real and work up to well below your previous work weights and stay there for a while. There is absolutely no positives about "re-injuring" an area again and again. Check the ego at the door and work smart.

[Merrida]

I'm not posting with a reply to the direct question, but rather, something that occured to me that ebon brought up: Am I understanding correctly you take one week off from training (meaning you do nothing, ie: passive recovery), and then you resume, attempting your full power/weights/load/resistance and reps and sets? THAT was the part of the post that caught my eye.

And, it's your back?

With any injury, but eeeeeeehhh, especially the back, your "rehab" into mainstream and returning to what your ego remembers you can do, is going to take a heck of a lot longer than taking one week off of doing nothing.

Also, it isn't purely about the "one week off and doing nothing" bit, but the whole transition BACK into lifting, incorporating "active recovery" periods, and being more concerned with proper healing (which will take a while), than trying to just pick up where you left off, first go.

If you are not careful, the chronic reinjuring could set you up for an injury you will NOT bounce back from. A lesser (but just as upsetting) danger is the formation of scar tissue from chronic reinjury and adhesions forming that your body will respond to by creating deep muscle imbalances. The list goes on, (it truly does), so.....so without answering your question about what exercise to do, I'd reply to your post by being more concerned with HOW you are doing executing them and seriously reducing your poundage.

[.V.]

No, I take a week of for rest then ease back into lifting over a week or two. Then when I reach the old weights - it happens again. It's not actually in my back - it's well below the lumbar spine - it's between the sacrum and pelvis.

I did a regular "week off" recently after it happened, another time I did a week of very light "recovery".

Same results - felt great then got it again. The problem is coming from an imbalance between my hamstrings and my quadraceps - big strength difference - very strong back with my legs being the weak point in all of my lifts. These three different strength levels in parts of the body that are supposed to work together tend to cause me to hurt the SI joint.

The weights being used are being seriously reduced - that's why I'm switching to this 8 week plan which will start out extremely light, the first week, I'll be using weights that are 30+ pounds less than my 15RM. Then I'll slowly increase in weights over the next couple of months...if I need longer - I'll take longer.

The crazy part of it is how unpredictable it is. I can DL 315 in the gym and not get hurt, then get hurt with 225 another day. Another time, I can move a 600 pound man alone because my partner who was trying to help is pinned under the man's legs.

So yeah, I'm taking it easy. There is no ego involved with me in the gym.

Gotta go, have a call...later.

[.V.]

OK, call cancelled and I'm back for the moment. I don't ego lift - I just like to do the very best I can for me while I'm in there. Since I'm in there alone there is no-one to impress. Problem, there is no one there but me to hold me back and I don't want to be lazy - so I'll try the pull or the squat. The weird thing that has me concerned is because if I squat 225 for 6 today, why would I get hurt with the same 225 on the 2nd rep next time - I am very strict about form.

Anyway, I've ordered a belt - that may be part of the problem. I prefer to lift without it, but I also prefer not to get hurt. I used a borrowed belt last workout and was able to squat and deadlift seemingly endlessly without injury.

Anyway, I've still got to decide between the CDL and the SLDL...the injury potential is about the same with one over the other for me...they are both effectve too. I'm leaning towards the CDL to include some quad work since My squats are really wide to include glutes and hams in the movement more...but I'm still not certain which one I want to do.

[etothepii]

Andy,
I just finish my second HST cycle Friday -- doing measurements this afternoon, will post results. Anyway, I alternated full squats and DL's every other workout and liked that very much. Good luck!!

[Maxgain]

Originally Posted by ebon00

I'm with Ironman on this, if you do HST you'll end up doing squats and deadlifts on the same day if I remember the program and that's a bit too much to take.

I dont believe it is Hst is a low volume programme.
All he has to do is 1 set to work the bodypart. When i did it i did squats and deadlifts one set for one two for the other alternating each workout -except for 15s when i did just one set for each.
That workout at 3 sets for legs per workout 9 per week I dont see how it can be classed as too much.

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Anyway, I've ordered a belt - that may be part of the problem. I prefer to lift without it, but I also prefer not to get hurt. I used a borrowed belt last workout and was able to squat and deadlift seemingly endlessly without injury.

If it helps you from getting hurt then it would seem wise to me to use it. And I think you are smart enough to not let your ego get in the way. I can appreciate how you feel about the belt. My wife doesn't like the callouses on my hands so a few years ago she asked to start wearing gloves. I do NOT like lifting with them (they simply are not me), but to keep peace they are on every workout. In a similar vein Andy, you may not like wearing a belt but if it helps then perhaps it is a concession you should make?

I also think it is good that your physician and PT agree with you using HST. Is it possible that you are doing the reinjury at work rather than the gym and it doesn't manifest itself until after you have been to the gym? Sounds odd, I realize, but at work you are constantly doing things with "poor form" (no put down intended - it is part of your job). And like Merrida pointed out, I'd hate to see you get scar tissue out of all of this.

Finally, get to that magical gym (you know the one - where real weight lifters train!) and use the trap bar. See if it is something you'd like using in your workouts. It is a different feel than deads or squats.

Originally Posted by Firehawk

What results have you gotten exactly?

I feel tighter/bigger, especially around the back, shoulders, tri's, & quads (I attribute that to working with the dumbbell clean & press, as well as front squats). I've even had a few people comment that I look a bit bigger. My strength has been on a slow increase too. The program appears to be working well - especially considering I've been very busy at work. But I'm not big on making judgements on only a few months worth of work. I prefer to give it 6 months or so before I make any assesments.

[Maxgain]

Originally Posted by IronMan

work. But I'm not big on making judgements on only a few months worth of work. I prefer to give it 6 months or so before I make any assesments.

If Im not looking like Jay Cutler after 2 weeks the workout is bogus time to change