deadlifts and squats (for a non competitive bodybuilder)

[rangers97]

i am having a raging discussion with some friends about deadlifts and squats and leg workouts in general. My argument is, that unless you are a powerlifter or a competitive bodybuilder, that you only need to do deadlifts, leg presses, and hamstring curls or glute ham raises to get great legs. To me, the deadlift and squat are very similar exercises, yes, people tend to feel the deadlift in the lower back more, but I believe this to be because of the weight used. The lower back and leg combo is so strong that you get the weight up whether you use a 50-50 combination of legs/back or 70-30 whatever, the weight gets up. Plus with the bar in front of you it is easier to use more back. BUT
I think that's a good thing...we want strong lower backs. The squat is more of an upright movement and the weight is more centered on your center of gravity so the lower back comes into play a lot less, yet it still does. I believe the 2 movements use the same musculature give or take a couple, like arms and traps get used more on the DL I think.

I feel the deadlift is a better FUNCTIONAL exercise for everyone as opposed to the squat, and therefore I feel it should be the #1 lower body mass builder for , like I said non powerlifters and competitive bodybuilders. There is no doubt that squats will give you great leg size and definition, but to me, it is overtraining for people to think they can do squats on leg day and deadlifts on back day, even if they are 4 or 5 days apart. Would you heavy squat or DL twice in the same week? then why would you do 2 exercises that do primarily the same thing? Most people in their everyday lives are lifting things all over the place, like moving furniture, lifting tables, whatever, so the increased lower back strength from DLs comes in handy for things like that

so did I present a good argument for my side that deadlifts are superior to squats for the everyday weight lifter? If I was recommending a program to someone who wasnt' a powerlifter or a bodybuilder, I would have them do 3 sets of deadlifts, 3 sets of leg presses and 3 sets of hamstring curls for their leg workout. I challenge anyone to try that routine and tell me if their legs aren't sore as hell the next day. Try doing only deadlifts for a month and tell me if it doesn't dramatically increase. Then if you must do them, add squats back in and try doing both and see if you get the gains you got while doing only deadlifts.

To conclude, squats are awesome, but how many times in real life are you going to be squatting with something on your shoulders? OR, how many times will you be bending down and picking something up off the floor ala a deadlift? So the DL should be the priority (to us everyday lifters)

[Todd]

Originally Posted by rangers97

My argument is, that unless you are a powerlifter or a competitive bodybuilder, that you only need to do deadlifts, leg presses, and hamstring curls or glute ham raises to get great legs.

I would have to disagree with you BIG TIME! Squats stimulate your legs in a way that ALL of those other exercises cannot. Ask yourself this one very question.... Which out of all of those above exercises you mention (including squats) is the hardest to perform? Whatever your honest answer is, THAT is the exercise that stimulates the best gains in size and power....case closed.

To me, the deadlift and squat are very similar exercises, yes, people tend to feel the deadlift in the lower back more, but I believe this to be because of the weight used.

The dead lift is primarily a total back exercise, but it works EVERY single muscle group in your entire body...and I am talking EVERY SINGLE ONE!

The squat is just as demanding, but in a different way, and it's primary stimulation is of the quads, hamstrings, and glutes, but there is a lot of lower back, and whole body tension going on as well.

Both the squat and dead lift are exercise that SHOULD NOT BE LEFT OUT of any sound bodybuilding routine if you want optimal and total development, unless you have an injury preventing you from doing them.

I feel the deadlift is a better FUNCTIONAL exercise for everyone as opposed to the squat, and therefore I feel it should be the #1 lower body mass builder for , like I said non powerlifters and competitive bodybuilders.

So, you think barbell curls is "functional"? Almost every exercise out there is not very "functional" because you wouldn't do half the movements in real life that you actually do in the gym...not even close. What makes an exercise functional or not is how well it stimulates your intended muscle group to give your body complete development. Complete development = functional in real life. And the only way to get complete development is to do those exercises that are tough to do... and you should do them all. Dead lifts are not going to give you complete and optimal leg development alone, and likewise, squats are not going to build your back optimally...even though each one of these exercises stimulate tons of muscle groups. You should do both for total development. At least in my opinion.

There is no doubt that squats will give you great leg size and definition, but to me, it is overtraining for people to think they can do squats on leg day and deadlifts on back day, even if they are 4 or 5 days apart.

I do exactly what you say above...squats on leg day and dead lifts on back day, and I don't get overtrained...that is because I eat and sleep for it....I feed the machine so that my body can handle this and adapt accordingly (increased strength and muscle size).

Most people in their everyday lives are lifting things all over the place, like moving furniture, lifting tables, whatever, so the increased lower back strength from DLs comes in handy for things like that.

Really? I sit at a desk all day behind a computer and then I go to the gym to train, then I go home and eat and eat, and eat, and eat, then I go to bed. So no, someone like me does not lift furniture, tables or what have you all day long. And I don't train so I can do those things...I train to be healthy as can be...and that means even and complete development.

so did I present a good argument for my side that deadlifts are superior to squats for the everyday weight lifter?

No.

To conclude, squats are awesome, but how many times in real life are you going to be squatting with something on your shoulders?

How many times are you going to curl a weight into your body as in doing a dumbell curl? How many times in real life are you going to push something over your head while lying down, as in doing a lying triceps extention? How many times are you going to have heavy weight on your shoulders and have to do calf raises for the calves in real life? Chances are little to none, but that does not mean you don't need to or shouldn't train by doing exercises that do this motion with resistance.

[ajarvis]

I'm definitely not going into as much detail as Todd lol, but IMO if I had a choice between the two I would leave out the deadlift when it comes to legs. The deadlift is primarily a back exercise, and when you do squats you can feel it in your hamstrings as well. If you engage the hamstring and the quad it's alot harder than just trying to squat with your quads (as I see many people do in the gym).

Personally when I was doing both exercises I didn't want to leave either one out as I felt I was missing something without both exercises. The stronger my deadlift got the stronger my squat got and vice versa.

[-AC-]

I also disagree, for much the same reasons Todd has given.

You also left out calf training, those tend to be important for your lower body development.


I'd replace those legs press with the squats.

[rangers97]

ok nothing like a little friendly disagreement eh?

ok here goes

Originally Posted by Todd

Which out of all of those above exercises you mention (including squats) is the hardest to perform? Whatever your honest answer is, THAT is the exercise that stimulates the best gains in size and power....case closed.

I honestly have to say I think they are equally as hard and they will both do wonders for your body.

Originally Posted by Todd

The dead lift is primarily a total back exercise, but it works EVERY single muscle group in your entire body...and I am talking EVERY SINGLE ONE!

I disagree---while the deadlift is MORE of a back exercise than the squat, I still think they are both primarily leg exercises. How does the deadlift start? by pushing your feet down and powering the weight up with your legs, sure other things take over at this point, but the initial thrust is done with the legs.

Originally Posted by Todd

Both the squat and dead lift are exercise that SHOULD NOT BE LEFT OUT of any sound bodybuilding routine if you want optimal and total development, unless you have an injury preventing you from doing them.

you are a competitive bodybuilder Todd, which is why you NEED to do both somehow in your routine...you are looking for every bit of development because you need to. To me, someone who doesn't compete, there is no need to do both. I have tried doing both in a workout week and all it did was left me drained, while I have excelled by using just one or the other. People get too caught up in I MUST do this and I must do THAT because thats what they were told. We are told by everyone we MUST squat and deadlift, but who is giving us this advice? Competitive bodybuilders and powerlifters maybe? Sure that's what they believe cause they NEED to do both. Me, mr nobody recreational lifter doesn't need to do both.

Originally Posted by Todd

So, you think barbell curls is "functional"? Almost every exercise out there is not very "functional" because you wouldn't do half the movements in real life that you actually do in the gym...not even close. What makes an exercise functional or not is how well it stimulates your intended muscle group to give your body complete development. Complete development = functional in real life. And the only way to get complete development is to do those exercises that are tough to do... and you should do them all. Dead lifts are not going to give you complete and optimal leg development alone, and likewise, squats are not going to build your back optimally...even though each one of these exercises stimulate tons of muscle groups. You should do both for total development. At least in my opinion.

No barbell curls are not functional, but I know that bigger and stronger arms will help with tasks like carying things and stuff like that. I disagree with your definition of functional. To me, functional means that I can do things in everyday life easier because I have worked out specific muscles that do those tasks. if I do an exercise that helps me do things in my everyday life that come about, I will keep doing it. you are interested in total development as a bodybuilder, it's your thing. to me, i don't need massive striated quads that squats might give me because I don't show my legs off, lol. but when I need to help my friend move, or rearrange the funriture in my house, it's nice to know that I can lift these things with confidence because I have a strong back from doing deadlifts. I find myself even getting "into deadlift position" when I go to lift something and to this day, I haven't had any issues. And yes, deadlifts will not completely develop the legs, thats why I mentioned leg presses and ham curls.

Originally Posted by Todd

I do exactly what you say above...squats on leg day and dead lifts on back day, and I don't get overtrained...that is because I eat and sleep for it....I feed the machine so that my body can handle this and adapt accordingly (increased strength and muscle size). .

you are probably way more dedicated than I am, and very good at what you do I might add, maybe that is how you are successful. I am not successful, I have a hard time getting 8-9 hours of sleep a night and I probably don't eat as much/as good as I should, so to me and others with my issues, (everyday people) it might be too much in a week. You my friend are above average when it comes to these things...

Originally Posted by Todd

How many times are you going to curl a weight into your body as in doing a dumbell curl? How many times in real life are you going to push something over your head while lying down, as in doing a lying triceps extention? How many times are you going to have heavy weight on your shoulders and have to do calf raises for the calves in real life? Chances are little to none, but that does not mean you don't need to or shouldn't train by doing exercises that do this motion with resistance.

I was just trying to make the point that there is a lot more value in really working your deadlifting muscles than your squatting muscles for everyday life tasks. you will definitely encounter situations where you need to lift things and the deadlift I feel allows you to be more prepared for this than the squat.

People will argue that the leg press is all you need for good leg development, so everyone has an opinion, I was just coming to grips with my training that I can't do both in the same training week because it is too much for me, I know it is, so I feel the deadlift is the better choice of the two if only picking one. There are other exercises that you can do for the legs that are somewhat similar to squats like leg presses and hack squats, but nothing else comes close to what the deadlift does. There isn't a substitute for a deadlift while there are substitutes for squats......
this is going to get good!

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by -AC-

I also disagree, for much the same reasons Todd has given.

You also left out calf training, those tend to be important for your lower body development.


I'd replace those legs press with the squats.

of course calf training is important just an oversight on my part, but yes that is important to include

[tim_mcf]

Originally Posted by rangers97

you are a competitive bodybuilder Todd, which is why you NEED to do both somehow in your routine...you are looking for every bit of development because you need to.

Well, I'm not a competitive bodybuilder...far from it. And I do both (or variations thereof), every time I lift. I'm not overtraining. It's all a matter of getting your body to the point where you can do it. Maybe the weights I'm using are low enough that I can handle it, or maybe it's just because I do it all the time. Still, if you find that you can't or don't want to do both, fine - it's your routine, do what you want. I do think it's a good idea to pay attention to what the competitive guys do though, since they clearly know what they're talking about. We all want to stimulate muscle growth - that's true of the competitive guys, the skinny newbies, the semi-fat guys like me...everybody. Deadlifts and squats both stimulate tons of muscle growth. It makes no sense at all not to do what works.

[.V.]

I also feel it is important to do both. I do squats off the box, stiff legged deadlifts on leg day. I do the conventional deadlift on back day. I wouldn't want to give up either one.

If I had to choose only one to keep, it would be the squat, no deadlift, no squat, no deadlift. Ahh hell, I'm keeping them all.

[Chain]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Todd. They are both great exercises. Now, if someone was going to ask me "if you could only do one exercise what would it be" then I would probably say the deadlift. But fortunately I don't have to stick with one exercise. And since that's the case I prefer to use the squat more often. We have to be careful not to trap ourselves into thinking "this is the best exercise" or "this is the only way to workout" because it only limits us. I do believe the squat is a superior exercise for legs for several reasons. Mainly Greater range of motion of the knee and greater load through that range of motion.

[PEPTgirl]

how many times in real life are you going to be squatting with something on your shoulders?

We do a single legged squat with a lateral twist every time we get into our car.

And if you've seen the size of my purse and lunch pack, you'd know I'm carting around some serious weight on my back.

[jallen]

yeah, i don't really agree with you're reasoning rangers. First of all, don't you know you're supposed to lift with your legs, not with your back. That's like rule #1, never lift with your back. Go pick up a really heavy box, and if you're not an idiot asking for a hernia, you squat down with a straight back and lift with you're legs. But then who really goes to the gym to prepare for that one day every couple of years when you might be moving heavy boxes, lol. I don't think you know who an "everyday lifter" really is.

[luke.w]

you can train the deadlift to hit your quads, it's the flat back olyimpic stlye thats is ALL legs, and some powerlifting stlyes hit the quads, the stiff-legged hits the hams, so I say you can get away without squatting much IF YOUR NOT COMPETEING, but I'd say to do some sort of supporting leg exercise at least once every few weeks.

I'm a good example, I rarley squat, (I used to hardy ever do full squats), but I did TONS of supporting movements and none of them were full range of motion, I front squat now only once every 2-weeks and it's only 1-3 sets of single rep, my legs are one of my more superior deveolpments.

my last back squat was months and months ago, and it was a bottom position squat (started from the bottom) bar at upper ab level, so it wasn't even parallel (slighty above) and it was 1-rep with 425lb.

platform deadlifts use lots of legs also, I did easy reps lastnite with 335 standing on a 5"box, lots of quads there.

it can be done.

[Todd]

There is just no logical reasoning to be able to say that doing only deadlifts rules out having to do squats, and that is basically what you are saying Rangers. Deadlifts DO NOT work the legs to the same degree as squats do...yes, they do work the legs, but not nearly to the same degree as squats. Ask any competitive bodybuilder this question ...because obviously they know. Believe me, if dead lifts did just as much (or more) than squats do for the legs, then nobody would be squatting, including myself...believe me!

As far as being functional goes, whether you are a competitive bodybuilder or a recreational fitness buff, for complete physique development and optimal everyday functionality, you should do both.

Like I said before, doing dead lifts only isn't going to fully develop your legs, and doing only squats is not going to fully develop your back....you should do both.

It's like saying, well I do heavy bench presses and it targets my front delts as well, so therefore why do shoulder presses?....And I do plenty of row movements when working back, so I don't need to do any rear delt exercise for them either. This is the same scenario as what you are saying basically. You need both for even and complete development, no matter what your definition of every day functionality may be for getting in shape.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by luke.w

it can be done.

Yes, it can be done, but to say that deadlifts are a superior exercise to squats for leg development is non-sense. Yes, anything can be done...hell, some people just do leg extensions for their leg development and claim that is good enough for them....and that it is functional for what they do for everyday life...so be it....but I don't feel that anyone can say dead lifts replace squats for total leg development. Squats are a very unique, but basic exercise, and the demands it puts on the body speak for themselves in regards to total body development ...they force your entire body to grow....and yes, they should be a staple in everyone's routine if they are looking to get the most out their overall training regimen. But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Klinger]

You could mimic a squat by doing deadlifts with a trap bar, but I still advocate doing both.

And you won't overtrain if you manage the volume. I do 3-5 working sets of each exercise, just 48 hours apart, and I'm just fine.

Few are going to blackball you for choosing leg presses over squats, but you won't convince many folks that there's no need to squat if you're not competing.