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Old 25-Jun-06, 09:40 AM   #16
Maxgain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze
Yes, theres possibe injury involved to the rotator cuff. I had certain trainers say, well...if it bothers you, cracks or hurts, then don't roll the shoulders...but if nothing bothers you, go ahead. Nothing bothers me, but I still go straight up and straight down....why take a chance.
I like that advice they gave you roll the shoulders until you get injured.
Never roll the shoulders!!!!!
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Old 25-Jun-06, 09:42 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by standAPART
The way you guys mention how to shrug reminds me of when I was 17 in the Boys Club lifting. If your arms are bent, that means your biceps are pulling the weight (along with the traps). If your biceps are pulling the weight, I garanutee you have the bar or dumbbells in front of your body (as opposed to the sides). I will also garantee that you have overly developed front delts and protrated shoulders.
Your best bet is to grab some 90-120 lbs DBs and hold them to the sides(neutral grip) and shrug with a controlled speed. If at any time, the dumbbells creep to the front of your body, stop the rep, re-stance & re-focus and continue.
Very interesting I believe for one I may be guilty will swap this week and see how it goes.
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Old 26-Jun-06, 07:35 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by IronMan
Perhaps, but it would be interesting to hear them nonetheless.
I will probably get slammed big-time for this (as I was the last time I expounded on my views around here) but I think this might be an important question to ponder, if not quite settle. So, here's the short version.

The traps can be (roughly) divided into three sections dictated by the orientation of the fibers. This is nothing controversial at all and can be found in any standard book on anatomy. I choose to quote, sparsely, from Gray's anatomy (online version):

From this origin, the superior fibers proceed downward and lateralward, the inferior upward and lateralward, and the middle horizontally[.]

So that means that what most people refer to as "the traps" are only the upper/superior fibers (the ones you see bunching up when you shrug your shoulders). Those "traps" that tend to be thrown in with deltoids in most beginner's first-time attempts at constructing their own program. Since trying to activate separate fibers of a muscle is impossible due to innervation it makes no sense to separate the working of superior fibers from the rest. (You can't even separately contract/activate separate heads in those muscles that have those. Try contracting only your vastus medialis. Not going to happen.) Bottom line, any shrugging should be done on back day when the "rest" of the trapezius is worked.

One more thing about the general anatomy of the trapezius (superior fibers only) is this:

upper fibres: pass inferolaterally from the skull and cervical spine to insert into the posterior border of the lateral third of the clavicle[.]

I'll explain why this is relevant in a second. (For those who aren't into anatomical lingo lateral basically means away from the centerline, medial means towards the centerline.) I've attached a picture to this post which show the rough outline of the fiber orienation which will come into play in desgning any program. Not surprisingly the red triangle are the superior fibers, the blue are the middle, and the green are the inferior.

So, what does this muscle do then? (Quote from GPNotebook in this case.)

* retraction of scapula: mainly produced by contraction of the horizontal central fibres medial to the scapular spine and assisted by more superior and inferior fibres
* elevation of scapula: mainly produced by contraction of superior fibres of trapezius. This motion not only permits shrugging of the shoulders - elevation - but also prevents depression of the shoulders when the pectoral girdle is being pulled downwards e.g. when carrying heavy weights in the hands
* lateral rotation of the scapula: this permits rotation of the glenoid cavity superiorly around a point near the base of the scapular spine. This movement is important in abduction at the glenohumeral joint. The lower trapezius fibres move the base of the spine inferiorly. The upper trapezius fibres elevate the acromion and lateral spine superiorly. Serratus anterior assists in this movement.
* extension of the neck: produced by bilateral contraction of the upper trapezius fibres
* lateral flexion of the neck: produced by unilateral contraction of the upper trapezius fibres
* stabilisation of the scapula: in combination with other muscles


For the first point, retraction of the scapula, just pull your shoulderblades together without shrugging your shoulders. That's the basic function of the middle fibers and it will be worked by most rowing movements where you have your upper arms perpendicular to your torso (arms out). Elevation of the scapula is controlled mainly by the superior fibers and any shrugging motion will take care of this. Notice that this works in tandem with the extension of the neck (pulling your head back). So if you look up at the ceiling when doing your shrugs that will mean a better contraction.

Now here's the rationale for bending your arms when working the superior fibers. If you look at the description of the upper fibers above note the part in bold. The upper fibers terminate at the lateral third of the scapula. To further illustrate this I've drawn an arrow on the picture so that you can see that the superior fibers extend all the way to lateral extreme of the upper ridge of the scapula. And now that I've totally confused most people here there's one more thing to consider, the trapezius' function of lateral rotation of the scapula. That simply means that the superior fibers assists in "tipping" the outer edge of the scapula (check the arrow again) slightly up. Just to be perfectly clear, read this part again:

* lateral rotation of the scapula: this permits rotation of the glenoid cavity superiorly around a point near the base of the scapular spine. This movement is important in abduction at the glenohumeral joint.

That means that the superior fibers assist in moving your arms out to the sides, as in a lateral raise. So any time your humerus (upper arm) moves away from your body the upper fibers of the traps has to assist by, as it were, "getting the scapula out of the way". In order to work the superior/upper fibers to their fullest you'll need to shrug your shoulders, preferably while looking slightly up, while also moving your upper arms out to the sides. Phew, everyone with me so far? I hope so because there's one more aspect to the upper fibers, fiber type.

[...]the lower third of the descending portion, the transverse, and the ascending portions of the muscle had a predominance of type I fibers [...], whereas the most superior parts of pars descendens had a higher frequency of type II fibers. (American Journal of Anatomy, 1990 189(3) p. 236-44)

Reader's Digest version: the upper fibers are mainly type II which means that they are good at short bursts of explosive action. Once we put all this together the perfect move for the superior fibers of the trapezius is a move that shrugs the shoulders, abducts the humerus, and is explosive. My suggestion for a candidate: the high pull from the hang. Second place would go to the kind of explosive "just move the damn weight" shrugs where the arms are allowed to bend that I've spoken about earlier in this thread.

Alas, this post is waaaaaay too long already so here's my recipe for a decent all-round midback/trap routine:

1) scapular stabilization: deadlifts in all their forms (snatch grip are the best)
2) scapular retraction: bent-over row and one-arm dumbbell row
3) scapular elevation and lateral rotation: high pulls from the hang or explosive shrugs

Of course, there are a lot of possible variations on this. Also, this is obviously missing any direct work for the inferior fibers of the trapezius and for the most part they don't need exra work. They'll assist in the finishing part of the deadlift and help stabilize the scapula throughout most other exercises. The only exercise I've found that seem to hit that part directly is a bent-over dumbbell raise with a palms-forward grip. I have no idea why this works, the anatomical explanation has eluded me, but it's the only direct lower fiber exercise I've found.

Now let the bashing begin...
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Old 26-Jun-06, 09:36 AM   #19
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Interesting post. I don't particularly believe fiber types should dictate the way you train a muscle (all fibers respond and adapt to training stimulus) but you've got some thought provoking ideas there.

Have you read the Kelso Shrug book? I just finished it myself, and highly recommend it. He illustrates many, many variations of shrugs, as there are many, many movements the scapula is capable of.

I tried the overhead shrug for the first time yesterday... I don't have enough experience to comment on it yet, but noticed the ROM was even less than a conventional shrug. One type of shrug that I do like is the bent over shrug. I did these after a set of incline t-bar rows to failure, it was amazing how much I still had left in my traps when I could no longer row.
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Old 26-Jun-06, 08:08 PM   #20
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Fourth time reading it and I've never been schooled in physiology. However, I'm slowing beginning to appreciate how complex and intricate the traps and back can be. The part I understood the best:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebon00
1) scapular stabilization: deadlifts in all their forms (snatch grip are the best)
2) scapular retraction: bent-over row and one-arm dumbbell row
3) scapular elevation and lateral rotation: high pulls from the hang or explosive shrugs.....
.....bent-over dumbbell raise with a palms-forward grip.
Very interesting and informative. That was some major research and writing on your part ebon. : Guess I'm one of those who won't ever really comprehend the why's of it all. But that doesn't mean I can't learn from those who do.
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Old 27-Jun-06, 02:13 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dan C
Have you read the Kelso Shrug book? I just finished it myself, and highly recommend it. He illustrates many, many variations of shrugs, as there are many, many movements the scapula is capable of.
No, I haven't read it. I have 5 shrug variations that I use, not counting the Olympic variations, so I don't feel like I need more. The scapula is indeed capable of a lot of movement and most people, once they've started a relatively balanced program that does the trapezius justice, could stand to throw in a protraction movement to activate the the serratus anterior and a pectoralis minor move every now and then for stability. But that's the outer limits really...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan
Fourth time reading it and I've never been schooled in physiology.
That's OK, this is anatomy!!! It doesn't really matter if one understands the "whys", the important thing is still to lift consistently and put in the work. Some of the best lifters I've known where completely intuitive in their choice of routine/exercises (often not even bothering with the names of the exercises) but they worked hard and were extremely dedicated and that's what matters. I think about this stuff because I don't have to think about it, if that makes sense - I see this stuff and it all comes together because that's how my mind works. And the only reason I decided to put these ideas into print was because you asked and maybe some readers will learn something.
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Old 27-Jun-06, 02:13 AM   #22
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Ooops, sorry... double post...
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