Frank talk about Max-OT - Page 3

**Firehawk** · 01-Apr-04, 01:30 PM

Are you considered an all natural bodybuilder if you use pro hormones?

**Todd** · 01-Apr-04, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firehawk

Are you considered an all natural bodybuilder if you use pro hormones?

Well, by all natural, you have to go with what's legal right now and what's not, and what is banned within all natural competitions. Prohormones (well most of them) are currently legal, and until they are not, then they can be used in one's arsenal/supplementation stack. There are certain natural contests that allow prohormones, and there are ones that don't, because there are certain pro-hormones that can give a positive false reading for "deca", even though you were not taking the steroid. Prohormones are NOT steroids, they are not even close to giving the same affects, and if they were, people would be using them left and right instead of actual steroids, because they are a lot cheaper and easier to obtain.

Jeff Willet and Skip LaCour (2 of the best natural for life bodybuilders ever) do use prohormones, as they are legal to buy and are allowed in the all-natural contests/federations they compete in. If they were to become banned or considered illegal, then they would not use them.

**Firehawk** · 01-Apr-04, 04:14 PM

Well, some time ago I looked at the warning labels on those pro hormones that were offered on ast-ss.com and then I looked at warnings that came on steroids...looked almost identical.

I dont know much about this stuff, but it seems logical to think that theres no way those guys from ast-ss.com could be anywhere near where they are without those pro hormones.

**Todd** · 01-Apr-04, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firehawk

Well, some time ago I looked at the warning labels on those pro hormones that were offered on ast-ss.com and then I looked at warnings that came on steroids...looked almost identical.

I dont know much about this stuff, but it seems logical to think that theres no way those guys from ast-ss.com could be anywhere near where they are without those pro hormones.

Believe me, they are NO WHERE near the same substances...not even close. Like I said, if they were the same, prohormones would be the biggest rage all across the world and people would be gobbling them up instead of trying to secretly get steroids which are obviously illegal. Just think about it.

And no, I do not believe that if Jeff and/or Skip were not taking prohormones that they would not be anywhere as big and well conditioned as they are now. They didn't build their physiques with prohormones.... and just like people who take steroids, it's easy to blame the drugs for what they have accomplished. You only say this because they are in such amazing shape, and well, most of us ..just aren't anywhere near their size and conditioning. Have a look at this guy. He is a personal trainer at the gym I go to and he is ALL natural. Every contest he has competed in has been rigorously drug tested, and this past fall he won the World Natural Championships in California. He is in AMAZING condition (as you can see) and he has his natural pro card. And yes, he is a hell of a lot bigger than most normal natural athletes...but nonetheless, he is ALL natural. So, you going to sit there and make up excuses everytime you see a well conditioned athlete?? You shouldn't, because you are only being ignorant to what natural bodybuilders can accomplish these days without the use of steroids. It's only a matter of time before you will not be able to tell which guys are natural and which aren't. Actually, that time is already here....as Derrick Brown, Jeff and Skip and many others are proof of it. But you know, it's easy to make excuses...it's the easy way out to make yourself feel better, instead of admitting that it is possible to build an incredible physique without drugs and all the other bs that people continually say you must do in order to achieve something spectacular.

:

**Firehawk** · 01-Apr-04, 05:38 PM

Easy killer, Like I said, I dont know much about it...I wasnt making accusations...only a "hypothesis-like" statement.

Well, IF they are PURELY NATURAL, then yea, they are amazing.

**Todd** · 01-Apr-04, 06:03 PM

Didn't mean to come over so strongly about it, but I believe there are many others out there that share your same point of view (if they're that big and well-conditioned, it must be drugs etc., that got them there). I guess I am just sick of the excuses, false conclusions and assumptions, that's all. But hey, like always, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs.

**Firehawk** · 01-Apr-04, 08:46 PM

Ill buy that Todd, if you buy the fact that alot of people that do get to be big, which use steriods to get there, DO IN FACT LIE ABOUT IT.

So...it can go both ways.

**Todd** · 01-Apr-04, 10:51 PM

Oh for sure, I am 100% sure that there are TONS of people who take them and then claim they don't. Not many do admit to it, or at least like talking about it openly. But regarding competitive bodybuilders in the all-natural scene, most good federations test for illegal usage with more than just a lie-detector test. Urinalysis, physique screening panels, as well as lie detector tests are used. So in that case, if they are lying or trying to cheat the system, nowadays the ones who are cheating are getting caught and their placings stripped when these tests are put into effect.

PowerManDL · 13-Apr-04, 01:46 AM

When exactly did prohormones become cheaper than steroids? That's news to me.....

**Firehawk** · 13-Apr-04, 07:27 AM

I have another question about being natural or not natural.

Lets say someone did steroids and got their strength and size up. Then, they stop the steroids and go to pro hormones. Is it possible then that they could be "natural" after a time of not taking steroids? Then there would be no way to tell?

Just curious.

PowerManDL · 13-Apr-04, 03:20 PM

I'm not sure I understand the question.

That's going to depend on how you define natural.

Kyle C · 13-Apr-04, 04:34 PM

Taking PH isnt natural. With what PH's are around today its basicly a steroid.

Kc

**Firehawk** · 13-Apr-04, 05:24 PM

Todd gave a definition of natural being as long as the person doesnt take something that is illegal. I would assume that this is what is "natural" for contests...but I dont know.

My question is, what if someone took steroids for awhile, and then stopped but substituted for legal things like pro hormones or wahtever. And over time, the steroids id imagine work out of your system and sooner or later you wont be able to tell with tests if they took them or not Correct?

So my question is would this type of person be considered "natural"?

**Todd** · 14-Apr-04, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firehawk

Todd gave a definition of natural being as long as the person doesnt take something that is illegal. I would assume that this is what is "natural" for contests...but I dont know.

My question is, what if someone took steroids for awhile, and then stopped but substituted for legal things like pro hormones or wahtever. And over time, the steroids id imagine work out of your system and sooner or later you wont be able to tell with tests if they took them or not Correct?

So my question is would this type of person be considered "natural"?

You would only be able to tell through a lie detector test possibly, whether or not they once took steroids in their life...but even some can get around the lie detector tests. One in this situation would be considered "clean" at present, but would not be considered a "lifetime drug-free athlete". But if the drugs are currently out of their system, it may be impossible to ever tell that they once took them...besides the lie detector..but even then, as I said, it isn't 100% full-proof all the time.

maddhatter · 14-Apr-04, 07:55 PM

to all you guys that follow max-ot to a "t",

do you consume as much protein as recommended in max-ot? It says more than 50% of your calories should be from protein. This is much more than 1g per pound of body weight (which most people recommend around here.