Gym + Question - Page 3

**Firehawk** · 12-Jul-04, 03:07 PM

I agree, that is my philosophy about it too Todd.

pbody · 12-Jul-04, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firehawk

I didn't know there were ROUND parts on a couch that you could grip lol. Bad example there.

Also, trying to compare real world application to free weight doesn't go over too well anyway. There is a thread somewhere in here about that one.

Something doesn't need to be round in order for you to hold onto it

. Pick up a couch with your hands underneath it, if your fingers (finger strength is related to grip strength) are weak, you won't be able to hold on- simple enough.

Free weight strength does transfer to real world strength. It might not be a direct transfer, but it does transfer.

pbody · 12-Jul-04, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

I agree with Firehawk, where in the real world are you going to be lifting 3 or 4 + hundred pounds? Furniture is one thing, but even then you won't find yourself in situations where not using straps for your heaviest deads is going to benefit you in the real world...because you will not be lifting that much weight from day to day outside of the gym anyways.

It doesn't matter if you don't have to lift 400+ lb things outside of the gym. If I can hold onto 400lbs without straps and you can only hold on to 300lb who do you think will have an easier time holding up a given piece of furniture? By your philosophy here, it seems that I may as well never go over 200lbs or so in the gym because hey, I'll rarely have to lift anything over 200lbs outside the gym right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

It's not so much you are forced to use straps, but rather, WHY NOT use them to enable yourself to lift more weight for more reps? When you get up to working with heavy heavy weights for deads, you are undoubtedely going to find that your back is WAY stronger than your grip or forearms. Your back is a huge muscle complex capable of handling TONS of weight compared to that of your forearms or your grip strength. Having said that, you are going to be capable of using massive amounts of weight for dead lifts and other back exercises. Your grip is naturally going to most likely fail before your back does, simply because your back is capable of more...so you SHOULD give it more, and not lift less JUST because your forearms or grip is giving out.

Relative size and complexity of the muscles have nothing to do with it. Your back and forearms have different functions, of course the muscles are different shapes and sizes. But they are capable of handling the same weights in their specific roles. My forearms have never given out on me doing deads. My forearms have grown into my current deadlift weight along with my back and I don't see this stopping anytime soon. So why use straps when you can build up the strength not to use them? seems like you're cheating yourself by doing this.

**Firehawk** · 12-Jul-04, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbody

Something doesn't need to be round in order for you to hold onto it

. Pick up a couch with your hands underneath it, if your fingers (finger strength is related to grip strength) are weak, you won't be able to hold on- simple enough.

Free weight strength does transfer to real world strength. It might not be a direct transfer, but it does transfer.

It isnt anywhere NEAR a direct transfer, and holding a bar, and holding a couch are nowhere near the same thing.

**Firehawk** · 12-Jul-04, 03:36 PM

If you can hold 400 lbs with your natural grip, great for you. You are one of the lucky ones. I am not about to withold my deadlifting though to wait on my grip. That is ridiculous.

pbody · 12-Jul-04, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firehawk

If you can hold 400 lbs with your natural grip, great for you. You are one of the lucky ones. I am not about to withold my deadlifting though to wait on my grip. That is ridiculous.

Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't use straps if your grip is seriously holding you back. I'm saying you should use them as little as possible to help your grip catch up with the rest of you. They are not necessary to lift the big poundages. I'm not lucky, I made the decision a few years ago to drop the straps. I've been building up my grip strength since then, there was no luck involved.

**Todd** · 12-Jul-04, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbody

It doesn't matter if you don't have to lift 400+ lb things outside of the gym. If I can hold onto 400lbs without straps and you can only hold on to 300lb who do you think will have an easier time holding up a given piece of furniture? By your philosophy here, it seems that I may as well never go over 200lbs or so in the gym because hey, I'll rarely have to lift anything over 200lbs outside the gym right?

Relative size and complexity of the muscles have nothing to do with it. Your back and forearms have different functions, of course the muscles are different shapes and sizes. But they are capable of handling the same weights in their specific roles. My forearms have never given out on me doing deads. My forearms have grown into my current deadlift weight along with my back and I don't see this stopping anytime soon. So why use straps when you can build up the strength not to use them? seems like you're cheating yourself by doing this.

My whole point is this...using your above example, if you feel that your forearms and grip strength have grown into your current deadlift weight, along with your back, then think just how much more you could get out of your deadlift if you were to use straps for your heaviest sets. You'd be able to do MORE weight for more reps than what you are currently doing right now. Your back would be stimulated for MORE gains compared to what it's currently receiving while being limited to the use of no straps.

Why are you so concerned about grip and forearms strength while dead lifting? You are not deadlifting to work your forearms are you? Is that why you do the exercise in the first place? Sh!t, I hope not! So, if that is not the case, then WHY NOT use straps for your heaviest sets and allow your back to be stimulated with the heavier weights?! It's simple logic really. :confused: Now, this seems like you are cheating YOURSELF here...not the other way around.

grambo · 12-Jul-04, 04:04 PM

i'll restate my point. If you're trying to deadlift for powerlifting reasons, it doesnt matter how your back workout went. It matters how much weight you lifted. On a max effort day performing deadlifts, if deadlift is a powerlifters main lift, it'll be low reps. Powerlifters dont deadlift in the 4-6 rep range, they train with singles or possibly triples.

If you're a body builder and back density, and size matters, straps matter. You want to exhaust your back muscles, and produce growth.

Its that simple...you wanna do this...

then leave the straps at home...

luke.w · 12-Jul-04, 04:06 PM

This is for anyone who is having problems with gripping a heavy deadlift and who WANT to do it without straps pay close attention to how your gripping do not wrap your thumb around your index finger. Wrap your thumb over top and around your middle and ring fingers. Use chalk and remeber your hands have the potential to be stronger than big muscles,but no YOU will never know this unless YOU do it. Any book or mag that you buy in a store or trainer will tell you differant and I seriously understand why anyone will disagree with me because unless they do serious grip work they don't know and if your only interested in your bodyproportions then you probally don't care about serious grip work. But theres plenty of guys that train deads and grip on the same serious level and have stronger grips. There are guys who can hold on to a heavier barbell (partial deads) without straps but can't lift the weight off the ground. I myself can hold over 300lbs in ONE hand both left and right but I can't deadlift over 600lbs. and I do loads of exercises that strengthen my back,hips,and legs.

pbody · 12-Jul-04, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

My whole point is this...using your above example, if you feel that your forearms and grip strength have grown into your current deadlift weight, along with your back, then think just how much more you could get out of your deadlift if you were to use straps for your heaviest sets. You'd be able to do MORE weight for more reps than what you are currently doing right now. Your back would be stimulated for MORE gains compared to what it's currently receiving while being limited to the use of no straps.

I thought I was clear, but I guess not. My forearms have never ever held me back when deadlifting. I have never ever felt that the rest of me could lift the weight but my grip wouldn't hold. When I said "My forearms have grown into my current deadlift weight along with my back" I did not mean to imply that my forearms had ever given out before the rest of me, but that as the rest of me grew in strength my forearms kept on par and were always able to handle the added stress of the increased weight.

In short, straps were not needed. Straps would not help me lift more weight on deads. I don't directly train forearms anymore. Deadlifts, rows, chins, etc. all stimulate them and keep them strong enough what I ask of them. Your forearms/grip will be able to keep up with the rest of your body, it's largely a matter of asking them to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

Why are you so concerned about grip and forearms strength while dead lifting? You are not deadlifting to work your forearms are you? Is that why you do the exercise in the first place? Sh!t, I hope not! So, if that is not the case, then WHY NOT use straps for your heaviest sets and allow your back to be stimulated with the heavier weights?! It's simple logic really. Now, this seems like you are cheating YOURSELF here...not the other way around.

I do not do deadlifts to increase my grip strength, that's just an added side effect of such a wonderful compund exercise. I do not use straps on my heaviest sets because they won't help me lift more and I don't see the need to reduce the number of muscles involved.

**Todd** · 12-Jul-04, 04:34 PM

Unless your back is failing at the same time as your forearms or before your forearms fail, then I don't see how not using straps wouldn't help you out to lift even more with deads.

I understand that you are lifting your current weight fine without straps, but how would using straps NOT help you to lift even more? I don't get it...as I see it, they would only aid you even more in the lift for your heaviest sets.

I mean, I know I can lift some pretty heavy weight for deads without straps, but I also know I can lift even more with them. So why not?

pbody · 12-Jul-04, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

Unless your back is failing at the same time as your forearms or before your forearms fail, then I don't see how not using straps wouldn't help you out to lift even more with deads.

I understand that you are lifting your current weight fine without straps, but how would using straps NOT help you to lift even more? I don't get it...as I see it, they would only aid you even more in the lift for your heaviest sets.

That's the thing, my forearms aren't failing when I do deads. Everything else is what's holding me back. You could bolt the bar to my arms and it wouldn't let me lift more. Straps will just take stress away from my forearms, and surely you can agree there's no point to that.

**Todd** · 12-Jul-04, 05:04 PM

Hmmmm...well, is your back well developed? Most people's forearms or grip will fail before their back will when doing heavy deads and going for those last few crucial reps. So that is why I ask.

pbody · 12-Jul-04, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd

Hmmmm...well, is your back well developed? Most people's forearms or grip will fail before their back will when doing heavy deads and going for those last few crucial reps. So that is why I ask.

Well developed is a relative condition. I do deadlift over double my body weight for 6 sets of triples, so you can judge if it's strong or not.

Look at luke.w's post- he can hold over 300lbs in each hand but can't deadlift 600lbs. Then take a look at his journal and ask yourself if he has a weak back.

A classic test of grip strength is your one arm deadlift, not your two arm deadlift. What does that tell you about many a strongmans grip strength compared to back strength? Don't coddle your grip and the strength will come.

Plucas8916 · 18-Jul-04, 02:08 AM

Well I want my grip strenght high too because I'm going for all around strength, But are there any other grip trainers that anyone else would recomend other than captians of crush? Also are there # grippers meant to be "repped" or are those just a 1 time close to test grip strength. I have no real experiences with grippers other than one I bought at a sporting goods store so thats why I'm asking.