I've decided not to re-invent the wheel

[Dan C]

I believe what you're describing is called a strain.

And unless you're using drugs that cause your muscular strength to grow abnormally fast (i.e. faster than your tendon strength), it's a problem with your training (i.e. overtraining, muscle imbalances). NOT because you're TOO strong.

Call it weak tendons. Call it an imbalance. Whatever. It's your fault for leaving something out, not the programs fault for making you too strong.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Dan C

Call it weak tendons. Call it an imbalance. Whatever.

Yes, precisely, your tendons are weak..weaker than what they can safely handle from the load you're putting on them...your muscles can lift the weight no prob, but the next day, week, etc...your tendons have been taking a beating. That is exactly what I am saying....it can happen where you feel you can lift more (and so you do) than your tendons can handle. I've had it happen before. You gain strength at a faster rate then what you're tendons can really handle. They handle the load when you do it, but it's later that you find out that because of that heavy load that you're tendons are getting a wrongful beatdown.

Yah, you're right, something is prolly being left out, I am not debating that, but the fact that this can and does happen, is what I am trying to point out here. And one does not have to be on drugs to have this affect take place.

[.V.]

Dan, please learn to read before replying to my post in my thread that I started to get some serious helpful answers to a real question. Not to start another, "Hi I'm Dan, look how smart I am, lets have some senseless debate that's totally off topic".

Originally Posted by dan should read

It's your fault for leaving something out, not the programs fault for making you too strong

Here is what I said, since you can't read I'll quote it again.

Originally Posted by me, this is what I said

Good plans, bad body for them.

...
How can I properly utilize the 5x5 since I've only done 4 weeks of it total in my life. So after finishing what I'm doing now, I'll be doing at least one pure 5x5 training cycle to see how it goes[/qoute]

Originally Posted by me

Now, I have a couple of questions for those who have actually done this.

Have you done a 5x5 program? If so why not reply to the questions asked, not start your sillyness, it's quite tiresome. If not, or if you have no desire to reply to the questions asked why are you even in this thread?

It works like this:
Q- what color are my eyes?
A- blue

Not like this:
Q- what color are my eyes?
A- Your feet are really big and you need to get wider shoes.

Not really something to debate or argue over now is it

Originally Posted by this is all I wanted to know

>Did you honestly still get arm growth proportionally with the rest of your body while not doing direct bicep and tricep work? Calves too?

>Pullups and rows together on this...too much? Should I choose one over the other? If I have to choose, which do I pick? With pullups, I'm moving more weight 202lbs+ the added weight...with rows, I've got more range of weight to work in because my bodyweight is going to be static or hopefully going up a little.

>What's best - ramped sets or straight sets.

And about the drugs I use, it's pretty simple I make no secret of them.

I use:
Copaxone - so that I don't end up a cripple again and to keep new MS attacks to a minimum - a good idea since most of the time my brainstem is the place that gets new exacerbations...I'm one of the lucky guys who this **** will kill one day when he just stops breathing. yaay me.
Testosterone - to give me a normal level for a man my age, this is becuase it was way too low, it's still lower than it should be but it's in the normal range at least.
Cialis - because for men with Multiple Sclerosis, sometimes it comes in handy, other times I just feel like an all day and half the night marathon.
Creatine - because I like the way it helps me look and feel.
Glucosamine - because sometimes in cold weather, my knees hurt.
Last night I even took a tylenol cold PM before bed because I had a headache with a stuffy nose and I thought breathing in my sleep would be nice.

I don't think there is anything in there making me freaky strong since I'm still rather weak. It appears that the supporting structures are actually weaker than the muscles (is that better?). As I said before, I had to re-evaluate and go for some mass because I had more strength than I had musculature and supporting structures to support. Now, 30 pounds heavier, I'm hoping I can work on strength again with less risk of injury.

If you've ever actually read my posts, you'd know that was a goal. Well, I gained the weight, now I'm going to try to get stronger again. If I still get hurt, I'll gain another 30 or whatever it takes. To me, strength gains have nothing to do with dragging tractor trailers around, nothing to do with carrying 800lbs on a yoke, nothing to do with doing world record squats. Nope, just to keep getting stronger instead of weaker (those are my only options), enjoy attempting to improve my physique as much as I'm able while I'm around to do it, and staying strong enough to do my job so that when I'm stuck holding 700+pounds I can handle it.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Dan C

This statement in and of itself doesn't make any sense. Being strong should provide security against injury. Maybe the program wasn't right for you, but there is no such thing as being "too strong."

Originally Posted by Dan C

It's your fault for leaving something out, not the programs fault for making you too strong.

Hmmm....which one is it?

[.V.]

My apologies to anyone else who is reading this. And my sincere thanks to those who made useful, helpful replies.

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Dan, please learn to read before replying to my post in my thread that I started to get some serious helpful answers to a real question. Not to start another, "Hi I'm Dan, look how smart I am, lets have some senseless debate that's totally off topic".



Here is what I said, since you can't read I'll quote it again.
...
How can I properly utilize the 5x5 since I've only done 4 weeks of it total in my life. So after finishing what I'm doing now, I'll be doing at least one pure 5x5 training cycle to see how it goes[/qoute]


Have you done a 5x5 program? If so why not reply to the questions asked, not start your sillyness, it's quite tiresome. If not, or if you have no desire to reply to the questions asked why are you even in this thread?

It works like this:
Q- what color are my eyes?
A- blue

Not like this:
Q- what color are my eyes?
A- Your feet are really big and you need to get wider shoes.

Not really something to debate or argue over now is it



And about the drugs I use, it's pretty simple I make no secret of them.

I use:
Copaxone - so that I don't end up a cripple again and to keep new MS attacks to a minimum - a good idea since most of the time my brainstem is the place that gets new exacerbations...I'm one of the lucky guys who this **** will kill one day when he just stops breathing. yaay me.
Testosterone - to give me a normal level for a man my age, this is becuase it was way too low, it's still lower than it should be but it's in the normal range at least.
Cialis - because for men with Multiple Sclerosis, sometimes it comes in handy, other times I just feel like an all day and half the night marathon.
Creatine - because I like the way it helps me look and feel.
Glucosamine - because sometimes in cold weather, my knees hurt.
Last night I even took a tylenol cold PM before bed because I had a headache with a stuffy nose and I thought breathing in my sleep would be nice.

I don't think there is anything in there making me freaky strong since I'm still rather weak. It appears that the supporting structures are actually weaker than the muscles (is that better?). As I said before, I had to re-evaluate and go for some mass because I had more strength than I had musculature and supporting structures to support. Now, 30 pounds heavier, I'm hoping I can work on strength again with less risk of injury.

If you've ever actually read my posts, you'd know that was a goal. Well, I gained the weight, now I'm going to try to get stronger again. If I still get hurt, I'll gain another 30 or whatever it takes. To me, strength gains have nothing to do with dragging tractor trailers around, nothing to do with carrying 800lbs on a yoke, nothing to do with doing world record squats. Nope, just to keep getting stronger instead of weaker (those are my only options), enjoy attempting to improve my physique as much as I'm able while I'm around to do it, and staying strong enough to do my job so that when I'm stuck holding 700+pounds I can handle it.

Haha.

It's posts like these that keep this forum entertaining. You and that Todd guy amuse me. So much talk with such little substance.

5x5 in a nutshell...
Choose a weight you can do 8-10 reps. Do 5 sets of 5 reps. When you can get all 5 reps for all 5 sets, progress by either decreasing the rest time between or increasing the load. Start with 2 or 3 exercises and go from there.

Afterwards go eat an apple... or an orange.

[.V.]

Never mind Dan. Apparently you couldn't read when you looked at Starr's book either. If you don't know what you are talking about (as usual) don't reply.

A simple thread with a couple of questions. And once again, thanks to you http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7...mmons02xc7.gif damn. It always seems to happen when you log on.

Geesh, 3 pages of this crap.

Goodbye.

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

So I did Max OT and made progress.
Then I tried a PL plan that was given to me and made progress
Then I got stronger than my small musculature could support and started getting hurt. Good plans, bad body for them.

After that I gave HST a shot (honestly didn't think it would do a thing for me) and was very pleased with the results. I'm 2 weeks away from finishing my second HST cycle. My first time, I finished it off with 5x5, this time 3x5...I'm not doing as well on the second cycle as the first...using way less volume this time (15 total rep for each lift workouts instead of 25-30).

I thought about doing a hybrid HST 5x5 program and on paper it looks sound since the two sets of principles are very close to one another, just a slightly different approach to progression and deloading.

However, why re-invent the wheel. How can I properly utilize the 5x5 since I've only done 4 weeks of it total in my life. So after finishing what I'm doing now, I'll be doing at least one pure 5x5 training cycle to see how it goes...then if I need to hybridize two plans together that's what I'll do.

The plan Starr 5x5 (madcow variation):
5x5
Squat
Dead
Shrug
Bench
Row
OHP
Crunch
Pullup
This will be 3x a week (4 times some weeks because of my rotating schedule).

(can't bring myself to give up shrugs, crunches, and pullups yet)

Now, I have a couple of questions for those who have actually done this.

>Did you honestly still get arm growth proportionally with the rest of your body while not doing direct bicep and tricep work? Calves too?

>Pullups and rows together on this...too much? Should I choose one over the other? If I have to choose, which do I pick? With pullups, I'm moving more weight 202lbs+ the added weight...with rows, I've got more range of weight to work in because my bodyweight is going to be static or hopefully going up a little.

>What's best - ramped sets or straight sets.

With ramped sets - the earlier, lighter ones could replace part of the warmup and all of the acclimation.

With straight sets - it would take a bit longer because I'd do warmup and acclimation sets first, but possibly be more effective because the working sets will all be heavier.

BTW - time or effort needed isn't really an issue. During my first "high volume" HST cycle I was spending 4 hours a day near the end of the 8 weeks. (maybe that's why I got 30lbs out of it?). Most of the time, 3 days out of 4 I have nothing to do but workout anyway.

Input from those with 5x5 experience would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Hey there welch...been a while....how have you been?? Anyway, I come on here every now and then these days, and I happen to notice this thread and I have done the 5x5 in the past year both the linear and the periodized version so I can be a bit of help to you.

first off, don't even try the periodized...or advanced as it is stated by Madcow. It is too much for us older lifters and especially for your situation. So stick with the linear.

secondly, I think what you listed for your 5x5 plan would be WAY too much 3 times a week and you'll burn out in 2 weeks if not sooner doing that. Dont be fooled by getting through one workout and feeling good, cause it catches up to you in a hurry.

Do what they say EXACTLY....don't do any more, it will only hinder your progress on it. It is definitely enough work, trust me!

Do direct arm work once a week, but not in a 5x5 fashion. what I did was 2-3 sets of db curls on mondays for about 8 or so reps and on fridays I added dips for the same sets/reps, however i don't recommend the dips cause they are quite fatiguing in this program, I would do pushdowns or extensions (I can't do them cause of my elbows, so I did dips). That should be enough for you while on the program.

Pullups and rows--do the rows like the program states, then on the middle day when there are no rows, what I did was overhead press instead of inclines and I added chinups on that day for the same scheme. that worked nicely, plus it keeps the vertical pushing/pulling in balance along with the horizontal pushing/pulling from the rows and bench. It works fine this way. For an example, now I am working on a westside template and I do a back exercise on every workout, 4 times a week, twice it's rows and twice it's chins/pulldowns and I do 4 sets of each a pop, and I am doing just fine with that, so don't think it's bad to do them both in the same week on the 5x5

I think that answers your questions, let me know if you need any other pointers on the 5x5 :

[.V.]

Rangers, thanks a bunch. This is the kind of information I was looking for.

This brings me to another question. Instead of doing it to change my 1RM into my 5RM over the 24 workouts (from the spreadsheet I used to calculate my lifts for me) I just added a small amount to each 5RM - to increase my 5RM by 10-20lbs. A little less agressive than originally outlined to take my limitations into consideration. I've been doing full body using close to the same format and same weight progression for a few months now, this will be a little less work than I've been doing, but ending just a little heavier. Oh and for rows, I cannot do the dynamic BB rows from the floor anymore. I'm having to settle for dumbell rows for now.

Taking this into consideration, would leaving the pullups out still be necessary?

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Rangers, thanks a bunch. This is the kind of information I was looking for.

This brings me to another question. Instead of doing it to change my 1RM into my 5RM over the 24 workouts (from the spreadsheet I used to calculate my lifts for me) I just added a small amount to each 5RM - to increase my 5RM by 10-20lbs. A little less agressive than originally outlined to take my limitations into consideration. I've been doing full body using close to the same format and same weight progression for a few months now, this will be a little less work than I've been doing, but ending just a little heavier. Oh and for rows, I cannot do the dynamic BB rows from the floor anymore. I'm having to settle for dumbell rows for now.

Taking this into consideration, would leaving the pullups out still be necessary?

well i didn't say to leave the pullups out...did I? I would consider them necessary, and I would do them on the middle day of the 5x5

Have you ever considered getting a trap bar? When I did the program, I subsituted deadlifts for trap bar deadlifts and let me tell you, it made a world of difference to my lower back. If I didn't want to get back into powerlifting, I would never do a regular deadlift again, that's how much I love the trap bar.

You can also use the trap bar for rows. No one ever mentioned this little benefit, but think about it, you can do a parallel grip barbell row, which is quite different than most all other rowing movements out there.

[.V.]

Yeah, I meant is leaving them out right after rowing needed.

The trap bar, yes considered it but haven't had the money yet. Too close to Christmas and I'm getting my 10 year old a Fender Stratocaster with a new amp. No money left for me right now (except a couple of bucks for earplugs). Her smiles will overcome any lack of having a trap bar until later in '07.

There is one at the gym I'll be occasionally using during the cold months. These old joints aren't looking forward to chipping ice off the bar to workout this winter. I'll definitely make use of it.

[.V.]

Another thing that keeps coming up is how heavy and how hard 5x5 is. Perhaps I've misunderstood something in the program. But it seems to be a full 24 workout plan that starts pretty light then increases your strength enough so that your 1RM becomes your 5RM. As I said, I'm not going to do it quite that agressively the first time around (I don't know my 1RM on any lifts right now and am not going to risk injury to find out). I'll be extremely pleased if my 5RM goes up by 10-20lbs on the "real" lifts.

The spreasheet I'm using is the one from a college football strength training program. For other lifts than the bench, squat, dead, I just plugged their values into the squat spreadsheet.

[Blaze]

Originally Posted by Dan C

Haha.

It's posts like these that keep this forum entertaining. You and that Todd guy amuse me. So much talk with such little substance.

Okay, I hate getting involved in arguments around here, but your sitting here and insulting to fo this forums biggest posters, who DO know what their talking about, whether you like it or not. Welch as mastered his nutrition to give him the best possible results his body can put out.
Todd...well, look at the guy. You don't look like that without knowing a thing or too about fitness. Yes, it's bodybuilding, but many other things are involved as well.

Can't we all just get a long around here.

[Firehawk]

To be point blank honest, i want to know how your calories are doing. If you are just getting enough calories and you are eating 4500, then start dirtyhing your diet up with some junk food and exceed those calories. Your strength will go through the roof. Try it.

[.V.]

Dave, diet's honestly been off kilter for two days. Busy as hell, eating PB&J every 2 hours the first half of the day then hitting the chicken, veggies, and steaks from 3p till bedtime.

I had them very close to 5K to gain my weight back and pick up a little fat. That was successful, now they are staying around 4500 - trying to back them off a little to keep the gains clean and lean. Stopped gaining, still maintaining, but got a little bigger and a tiny bit stronger in the last couple of weeks but leaner - weird, don't really understand it. I may actually have to take the calories back up again though. Good suggestion. Thanks.

And yaaaay me. Best squats today...ever.