I've decided not to re-invent the wheel

[.V.]

So I did Max OT and made progress.
Then I tried a PL plan that was given to me and made progress
Then I got stronger than my small musculature could support and started getting hurt. Good plans, bad body for them.

After that I gave HST a shot (honestly didn't think it would do a thing for me) and was very pleased with the results. I'm 2 weeks away from finishing my second HST cycle. My first time, I finished it off with 5x5, this time 3x5...I'm not doing as well on the second cycle as the first...using way less volume this time (15 total rep for each lift workouts instead of 25-30).

I thought about doing a hybrid HST 5x5 program and on paper it looks sound since the two sets of principles are very close to one another, just a slightly different approach to progression and deloading.

However, why re-invent the wheel. How can I properly utilize the 5x5 since I've only done 4 weeks of it total in my life. So after finishing what I'm doing now, I'll be doing at least one pure 5x5 training cycle to see how it goes...then if I need to hybridize two plans together that's what I'll do.

The plan Starr 5x5 (madcow variation):
5x5
Squat
Dead
Shrug
Bench
Row
OHP
Crunch
Pullup
This will be 3x a week (4 times some weeks because of my rotating schedule).

(can't bring myself to give up shrugs, crunches, and pullups yet)

Now, I have a couple of questions for those who have actually done this.

>Did you honestly still get arm growth proportionally with the rest of your body while not doing direct bicep and tricep work? Calves too?

>Pullups and rows together on this...too much? Should I choose one over the other? If I have to choose, which do I pick? With pullups, I'm moving more weight 202lbs+ the added weight...with rows, I've got more range of weight to work in because my bodyweight is going to be static or hopefully going up a little.

>What's best - ramped sets or straight sets.

With ramped sets - the earlier, lighter ones could replace part of the warmup and all of the acclimation.

With straight sets - it would take a bit longer because I'd do warmup and acclimation sets first, but possibly be more effective because the working sets will all be heavier.

BTW - time or effort needed isn't really an issue. During my first "high volume" HST cycle I was spending 4 hours a day near the end of the 8 weeks. (maybe that's why I got 30lbs out of it?). Most of the time, 3 days out of 4 I have nothing to do but workout anyway.

Input from those with 5x5 experience would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[maverick]

If you are looking for a good 5x5, just use the Starr one with linear periodization on madcow's site (ramped sets). I did it for 8 weeks and added pounds to every thing and felt much "sturdier" after those weeks. Its hard to explain, but 2 months of these workouts (couples with some serious eating) left me tanked, but feeling like i could take a baseball bat across the back and not even notice.

As for worrying about your arms, just put in some not-too-intense accessory work in AFTER you complete the 3 exercises at 5x5 that the workout requires. I think the routine even gives suggested extra work to do.

I wanted to run another cycle of it, but it took a pretty heavy toll on me. I pulled something in my groin doing deep squats and the constant heavy bench pressing awoke an old nagging tricep pain. Its nothing to joke around with, and soon as I'm healthy again, I'll probably take another go at it.

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Then I got stronger than my small musculature could support and started getting hurt.

This statement in and of itself doesn't make any sense. Being strong should provide security against injury. Maybe the program wasn't right for you, but there is no such thing as being "too strong."

[tim_mcf]

I suspect Andy's probably talking about hurting his tendons and such.

[.V.]

Tim, you hit it exactly. I had muscle imbalances, my quads and back were way stronger than my glutes/hams. End result - aggrivating and re-injuring my old SI problems. Yes Dan, it is possible through neural adaptation to get too strong for your body to support. You have some kind of degree in this stuff and don't understand that simple concept? I wasn't asking for your opinion on that anyway. I asked some simple questions as they relate only to 5x5 routines to people who do or have done 5x5 routines. That's the questions I'd like answered. Not start a hijacked off topic debate or Luke and Dan show like you did in MM's, simple "what kind of wraps do you like" thread. Come on guy, get over yourself.

Others who are actually interested in answering the questions I asked, please chime in.

[.V.]

Maverick, thanks for the pointers. I'm actually doing better on the deep squats than I've ever squatted before. Of course I'm squatting lighter than before, but still it's giving me some actual results so weight be damned...I'm actually getting stronger and bigger so it's good.

[Dan C]

Then the problem wasn't because your quads and back were too strong, it was because you're glutes and hams were weak!

And that's a completely different issue than tendons anyway, though if you would have said that in your original post that might have made more sense. It's very possible that with the drugs you're taking your muscles are growing at a faster rate than your tendons can withstand.

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Yes Dan, it is possible through neural adaptation to get too strong for your body to support. You have some kind of degree in this stuff and don't understand that simple concept?

No, I don't understand. Please explain, smart guy.

[Maxgain]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Maverick, thanks for the pointers. I'm actually doing better on the deep squats than I've ever squatted before. Of course I'm squatting lighter than before, but still it's giving me some actual results so weight be damned...I'm actually getting stronger and bigger so it's good.

you are lucky. I just got a long term banning from deep squats by my physio. No injury just the natural physiology of my knee.

Exercises look good and you dont believe you need to isolate the arms with such a high repeat rate ie every second day

[maverick]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Maverick, thanks for the pointers. I'm actually doing better on the deep squats than I've ever squatted before. Of course I'm squatting lighter than before, but still it's giving me some actual results so weight be damned...I'm actually getting stronger and bigger so it's good.

Are you still working out solo at home? Pushing the limits of the 5x5 is gonna be tough without some safety equipment or a spotter. Glad to hear that deep squats are becoming doable. Its the only way I squat now, I can't trust myself to make sure I get parallel when I got a lot of weight on my shoulders.

[.V.]

hah, I'm nowhere close to using a lot of weight now that my feet are closer together, keeping my form good, and actually touching my calves with my butt at the bottom each time. I actually don't care how much weight I use though. That pushing for more and more was hurting me too often.

Dan, the medications are actually helping. The injuries were happening BEFORE I started treatment. No new ones since beginning. Perhaps thats because I've concentrated so heavily on glute ham improvement over other things, lifted lighter to let them try to catch up to quads and back.

And yes, it is possible for one body part to be too strong for a weaker body part to work with. Weak glutes/hams, strong back...the two don't work well together. The back was getting stronger, faster than the other muscles.

[.V.]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

>Did you honestly still get arm growth proportionally with the rest of your body while not doing direct bicep and tricep work? Calves too?

>Pullups and rows together on this...too much? Should I choose one over the other? If I have to choose, which do I pick? With pullups, I'm moving more weight 202lbs+ the added weight...with rows, I've got more range of weight to work in because my bodyweight is going to be static or hopefully going up a little.

>What's best - ramped sets or straight sets.

With ramped sets - the earlier, lighter ones could replace part of the warmup and all of the acclimation.

With straight sets - it would take a bit longer because I'd do warmup and acclimation sets first, but possibly be more effective because the working sets will all be heavier.

These are the things I need to figure out before starting. I start in 4 or 5 weeks. Three weeks left on my current plan. One or two weeks off.

Maxgain, thanks for the input I hope you are right on not needing the direct arm work. MostMuscle reccomended this a while back with OLAD, I tried it and didn't lose anything, got stronger to boot. Even my curling strength went up. However, I simply wasn't ready for a program that heavy - way too tough for a beginner or anyone with my limited experience.

Mav, thanks to you too. What's your opinion on ramping vs straight sets? Yes, I'm still doing it home alone. However as it gets colder, I'll start driving to the nearest gym instead. The whole back half of it is full of racks and big, unused benches. They don't care if I drop a bar, make some noise, and will even let me watch TV on one of thier treadmills (damn cardio equipment all has big flatscreen TVs for each one.) The problem is going to be still being alone. There was actually one guy there last time I visited under 90 who I spotted for and who spotted for me. It was good, help with handoff then step back. The safety bars in the squat racks will allow me to push it on squats a little, someone close by to get the bar off my neck if I fail will help on the bench.

[maverick]

I don't have any experience with a 5x5 using straight sets, only ramped. I liked the ramped cause my total focus was on putting up more weight. By ramping the sets, you get practice in the skill of whatever lift you are doing by doing multiple sets, yet your strength and energy are saved for the ones that really count.

[.V.]

That does make sense.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by a_welch503
Yes Dan, it is possible through neural adaptation to get too strong for your body to support. You have some kind of degree in this stuff and don't understand that simple concept?

Originally Posted by Dan C

No, I don't understand. Please explain, smart guy.

Andy is right...there can be times where your strength is increasing at a rate that your tendons and other connective tissue are not keeping up with. If one switches to any sort of low volume/heavy weight routine, this can easily happen. You are pushing yourself and all of the sudden there are some weeks where you feel you can lift say 5-10 pounds more than the previous week for a particular exercise...your muscles and mind seem fine in attempting it, so you do....but only find that you've got some pains going on in your wrists, elbows, etc., down the road because the weight you lifted was too heavy for what your tendons could safely handle. Can happen to anyone, and I would suspect it does/has happened to many lifters one time or another in one's training career.

It's more common than you'd think, believe me.