Lat Question for the big boys and girls

[.V.]

Right now with the 5x5 program, my strength does seem to be improving. Nothing impressive, but improving.

I was able to make it through most of my planned conditioning workout last night and I feel that this will continue to improve.

I'm not specifically training for physique like a bodybuilder, but just to get bigger and stronger all over.

My lats seem to be a little sluggish right now. Strength and endurance for pulling things close to my body are very important in the near future.

I've been training them heavy with weighted pullups in addition to rows for a while now.

I wonder though, if I drop the weighted pullups and do bodyweight pullups for 50 or so if they would continue to get bigger and stronger? I'd either do them on my deadlift and "light squat" day or on my cardiovascular conditioning day.

Or - if I keep doing the weighted pullups, would doing bodyweight pullups on conditioning day overtrain the lats?

Thanks for input.

[Blaze]

Personally, I think bodyweight pullups alone are enough to build up the lats to a pretty good size. Even if you do train past that hypertrophy zone and into the endurance area. Simply because it's such a high quality compound movement.

Not that there is anything wrong with weighted, that works well too. Some people need it, some don't. Work with what works for you.

I doubt overtraining is an issue with bodyweight stuff, unless you overload your volume or workload like crazy. If you take it easy and simply get the blood flowing back to those muscles, its not gonna hurt, and may even help.

Just my 2 cents

Andy,

I'm really liking this pullup workout which I do every now and then.

Warm up with BW x 5. Then do a series of weighted singles, progressively adding weight until you reach a safe max weight single rep set. Then do one final set of BW x failure.

I think this gives you the best of both worlds. I just don't know how important it is for you to do a 5x5 because this definitely isn't that.

[.V.]

With the 5x5 program, the main lifts (squat, dead, bench, row) are done 5x5. Everything else is done however you wish 3x8-10, 3 or 4x4-6...however.

I do want the lats to be wider but this is not primary. Stronger is. But the primary focus of my training is useful strength that I can translate into the real world in case it's needed.

[Dan C]

Might want to try adding a set or two of pullovers in to either pre-fatigue or finish the lats off with. I'm a firm believer that the biceps are, and always will be, the limiting factor in any pulling/rowing movement.

I'd say if the goal is strength, pullovers after the chins or rows. If the goal is size, pullovers before the chins or rows.

[.V.]

Never done pullovers. Would they help me pull tightly to my chest or shoulders from in front of me?

[Klinger]

Andy - what about switching to DB rows? Try cycling through rep schemes each back workout -- 5x5, 4x8, 3x12 -- to keep those lats guessing and growing.

I've been working as high as 15 reps and as low as triples with my lat work and it's paid off in size and strength.

Also, don't be afraid to experiment with different angels and exercises. Mix in wide rows, narrow rows, low rows, high rows, etc.

[.V.]

I like the dumbell rows and did them when my SI was too bad to do real BB rows. But rowing with 5x5 and dumbells takes forever changing weights each set.

Keep the ideas coming boys and girls. Good ones so far.

The one thing that I must give credit to Mr P for though is the burpees reminder. I don't exactly know how, but they ARE a lat killer.

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Never done pullovers. Would they help me pull tightly to my chest or shoulders from in front of me?

I don't understand this question.

[.V.]

Sorry Dan.

You know how when we row we pull the bar from the floor to about the belly button?

And when we do pullups we pull our body up so that our chest touches the bar - and as we get heavier then eventually only the chin goes above the bar?

That's increasing the pulling power of the lats.

I need to increase that more so that when I pull something to my chest I can do it with maximum power AND hold it there. Just wondering if the pullovers you mentioned would help with that.

Your reccomendation of the front squats for warmups was a good one. Doing them for every squat workout. Got any good ones for improving lat power?

[Dan C]

Gotcha.

Here's the thing, the lats have over a 180 degree pull on the upper arm. The arm can be taken from overhead, all the way down (in a swimming motion) and held behind the back. The lat is mostly responsible for that entire movement.

However, there is no exercise (besides a good pullover machine - and pullovers are about the only thing I like to use machines for) that addresses that entire ROM. Even DB/BB pullovers only tax the lats from a little behind overhead to ~45 degrees from the floor.

But a pullover is the only lat exercise where the biceps is not also a prime mover. There is no elbow flexion in a pullover. Even though a pullover is not an isolation exercise (chest, shoulders & tri's also involved) it essentially isolates the lats from the biceps.

So when you couple pullovers with chins/rows, you can work the lats beyond where you would normally fail (due to the weaker biceps).

Will pullovers help the strength of your lats? Yes.

Will pullovers help your pulling/rowing strength? Yes, but pulls will always be limited by the biceps. Though if your lats are stronger they can pick up some of the slack.

[maverick]

Everyone seems to say to go wide for lats, but it never worked for me. I saw the biggest difference in the appearance of my lats when go very heavy heavy with close, underhand grip vertical back exercises.

[LiftGirl]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

You know how when we row we pull the bar from the floor to about the belly button?

If you do T-rows, you'll be pulling the bar into your chest. Not sure if you can do that with your set-up. Not sure if that really helps you either. I don't think that's the advice you were looking for.

[Quadancer]

Andy, how did it all work out for you? Anything work? Like Maverick, I got lats when I started doing narrow work; heavy weighted narrowgrip pullups, leaning back a bit and pulling all the way to the chest when I could.

[.V.]

So far things are going well. Rowing the most ever right now. Pull ups are the heaviest to date too, still doing a medium width.

Lat growth wasn't my main concern though. It was "squeezing power" that I was having trouble with. Got some extra ground practice and improved technique helped with that.