New routine any good?

[xrichmondx]

Im planing a new routine it is as follows. Please feel free to criticize or change as you feel needed.
Monday: chest bis tris
Tues: legs
weds: shoulders
thurs:back traps bis
friday: chest and tris

the reason i have it looking so weird is becuase i want to work on my arms and my chest becuase those are my weak points everything else seems to grow fine. do you think this routine will work for trying to get my weak points to grow faster or will it just be about the same. Also how mand sets should i be doing for bis and tris. Ussually i do about 6-9 sets for bis depending on how i feel then 9 sets for tris should i do more or less. my arms are at about 14 now but dont look like it unflexed id like to get them to a nice solid 15 in about 2 or 3 months. my biceps are lagging the most. most of this is genetice becuase my dad is small in the chest and arms but i am hoping that this will help me overcome that. Im not doing back or legs twice becuase they grow consitently and i gain about 10llbs on an excercise every two weeks with back at the least. Also is it good to switch up and do incline first instead of flat bench becuase my incline lags alot so i decided to start with that sometimes.Sorry about the huge post i just have somethings i need to figure out in order to reach my summer goals any input will help. Thanks -John

[MostMuscle]

What did your previous routine look like?

[xrichmondx]

my old routine is
Mon chest bis
tues legs
weds shoulders
thurs back traps
fri. triceps
so its not really that different just more excercises for my weak points thats it.

[Todd]

Just because a body part is lagging, does not mean that training it more often with more exercises is going to make it grow any faster/better. You must learn how to train those body parts with greater intensity and/or more intelligently.

Smart intense training will lead to better gains, not working the body part more often. Cuz if that were the case, I'd be working each body part every single day!

[TommyD]

Originally Posted by Todd

Just because a body part is lagging, does not mean that training it more often with more exercises is going to make it grow any faster/better. You must learn how to train those body parts with greater intensity and/or more intelligently.

I don't know about that... there are some pretty intelligent guys and gals out there who are training body parts 2+ times per week and getting some great results. As long as you don't go to failure and you give your muscles the adequate time to recover (2-3 days), you can go ahead and get another workout in that week.

An example of that would be Westside training. You have a ME and a DE day for both squat/deadlift and bench in one week. By training those 2 lifts twice a week, they're essentially training the same body parts twice a week, and getting wonderful strength and mass gains.

[xrichmondx]

yea alot of people told me to train each body part twice a week since i am just basically a beginner (i am still in my first year of training). but i dont have time to really schedule that becuase i cant make it to the gym on the weekends so i decided to focus on the body parts i am weak at twice a week.Is soreness a good way to base whether or not you should work out a body part again? i only stay sore for about 2 days at the most and with this schedule i should have plenty of recovery time inbetween working out the same parts.

[TommyD]

Soreness isn't the best indication of how well you've worked a muscle, nor how fatigued it really is. If a muscle is sore to the touch, you probably shouldn't lift it, but if it's just some slightly uncomfortable soreness while you move, you can probably lift again, but lift light. Don't try to overload your muscles while they're sore, because it's harder to tell your limits and you could hurt yourself easier.

Usually it takes your muscles about 2-3 days to recover, so if you wait that long, you should be okay to lift that body part again.

[KetoManiac]

training a muscle more frequently will result in greater results usually

[jukka]

Originally Posted by KetoManiac

training a muscle more frequently will result in greater results usually

So I guess I should take up a whole body routine,
and do that two times a day, huh?

Because, you know, it's hard to train your muscles more often than that.
Oh, no, now I got it, how about a whole body workout 3 TIMES A DAY!!
Now THAT'S what I call frequency!!

I'll start doing that and pretty soon I'll be talking with an Austrian accent, walk like I have a pair of badly fitted artificial hips and lose all and any ability to act. Or no?

What I'm hinting at here is that if you think that adding frequency is a good think, where does it end?

[KetoManiac]

Originally Posted by jukka

So I guess I should take up a whole body routine,
and do that two times a day, huh?

Because, you know, it's hard to train your muscles more often than that.
Oh, no, now I got it, how about a whole body workout 3 TIMES A DAY!!
Now THAT'S what I call frequency!!

I'll start doing that and pretty soon I'll be talking with an Austrian accent, walk like I have a pair of badly fitted artificial hips and lose all and any ability to act. Or no?

What I'm hinting at here is that if you think that adding frequency is a good think, where does it end?

actually, I occasionaly will train twice a day for 6 days. Oh do you know who the bulgarian powerlifters are? the ones who win in almost every competition?Yeah the ones who train multiple times a day every week for extended periods of time

quit your rude comments and start researching... what if someone said more volume usually works better...would you jump on there tail also?

Or what are your personal beliefs yourself? Tell me them and ill easily tell you the flaws

and for your information, you stop the frequency with what you can handle. Did you know a muscle can recover in as little as 48 hours - 72 hours?

btw it takes the body around 14 days to begin overtraining, didnt know that I bet.

and I said usually btw, read the damn post, if your question was "how much frequency is too much" then cut out all that bs you posted

[kenyon21]

Try this:
M-Chest
T-Back
W-Legs
R-Triceps\Shoulders\Chest
F-Back\Biceps\Traps

something along those lines would work pretty well for you. i had a talk with a couple of the certified personal trainers up here at the YMCA where i work at, one of them with a master's degree and the other one a former Olympian, so i think they know their stuff. as long as you give the body adequate time to recover it's perfectly fine to lift the same muscle more than once a week.

tom i've got a couple questions about the DE training and such, i'm sending you a PM about that.

[grambo]

Westsides goals are completley different than the average body builder. Size is not the goal, strength is the goal. Westside guys being is seconday concern.

The reason for the volume they perform is to maintain a level of strength, as well as developing different areas of strength. Maximum hypertrophy requires rest. If you're burning your muscles out everyweek through failure, then give them a full week of rest.

Westside trains with maximal weights, as well as sub-maximal weights, but always stays away from failure. This is how they can maintain the level of intensity and maintain strength gains.

[jukka]

Yeah, sorry dude (KetoManiac), I came off a bit too sarcastic there.
Still, you read between the lines, how much frequency is too much was what I had in mind.

The harder you train the less often you can train.
So training more frequently means training with less intensity.

And since Xrichmondx, said that he cannot commit the time to hit the gym 6 days a week, regulating intensity might be better for him.

I've heard and read about the Bulgarian volume training, but dammit dude,
these guys came from the ex Eastern Block,
to them steroids are definitely a given.

As far as how quickly muscles can recover, yeah, they CAN recover in 48 to 72 hours...but it also CAN take up to two weeks for that to happen.
Again it all boils down to the intensity of one's training.

My personal belief is that high intensity workouts are your best option.

NOT the only option by any means, and higher volume workouts produce progress as well...for the genetically gifted ones.

But if a trainer is like me, and doesn't recover very quickly and gets easily overtrained, then the brief and intense sessions with lots of days off in a guven training cycle are definitely the way to go.

Otherwise, you'll just burn out faster than George W. trying to use big words.

Also, finding the appropriate amount of sets/muscle group and the amount of days needed to recover is really easy with HIT:

You warm up, you do your HARD set, then do another one, and if you can do one more HARD set for that particular musclegroup, go ahead. And do as many HARD sets as you can untill you realise your muscles are so wasted you can only do half-assed sets anymore. To me its 3 sets at most per muscle group.

If, the next time you go to the gym, you cannot lift heavier weights or mdo more reps, you went there too early, and your muscles hadn't had time to recover AND grow. Growth happens AFTER recovery has taken place.
So you take an extra recovery day before the next time you hit that muscle group.

it's pretty damn simple...and it's hard.

[KetoManiac]

The harder you train the less often you can train.
So training more frequently means training with less intensity.

yes, so why is that a bad thing? Intensity doesnt build muscle, mechanical load does

And since Xrichmondx, said that he cannot commit the time to hit the gym 6 days a week, regulating intensity might be better for him.

doing an upper/lower split twice a week takes 4 days.

I've heard and read about the Bulgarian volume training, but dammit dude,
these guys came from the ex Eastern Block,
to them steroids are definitely a given.

alright, steriods are a miracle drug your right, they enable us to do anything. Steriods have there limits also, I wish people would stop bringing them up everytime someone gains with something different.

As far as how quickly muscles can recover, yeah, they CAN recover in 48 to 72 hours...but it also CAN take up to two weeks for that to happen.
Again it all boils down to the intensity of one's training.

no....the muscle and its chemical properties return to there normal levels in 48-72 hours. It cant take 2 weeks, that would be CNS recovery.

My personal belief is that high intensity workouts are your best option.

great, time to jump on your tail, seeing it as HIT is one of the most flawed routines out there.

NOT the only option by any means, and higher volume workouts produce progress as well...for the genetically gifted ones.

volume isnt the only option next to HIT.

But if a trainer is like me, and doesn't recover very quickly and gets easily overtrained, then the brief and intense sessions with lots of days off in a guven training cycle are definitely the way to go.

the only way you will overtrain is if you train too intensly and frequently and too much volume. Balance it out, and you dont overtrain.

Also, finding the appropriate amount of sets/muscle group and the amount of days needed to recover is really easy with HIT:

You warm up, you do your HARD set, then do another one, and if you can do one more HARD set for that particular musclegroup, go ahead. And do as many HARD sets as you can untill you realise your muscles are so wasted you can only do half-assed sets anymore. To me its 3 sets at most per muscle group.

right, but then thats not HIT, thats training to failure... for 3 sets

If, the next time you go to the gym, you cannot lift heavier weights or mdo more reps, you went there too early, and your muscles hadn't had time to recover AND grow. Growth happens AFTER recovery has taken place.
So you take an extra recovery day before the next time you hit that muscle group.

it's pretty damn simple...and it's hard.

okay, the first thing you need to do is realize how frequency is better then intensity.

Ill start it out like this, what happens when you stimulate a muscle?

chemical, biological, nueral, and mechanical reactions take place. These are mostly beneficial, such as inreased protein turnover/synthesis, release of IGF-1 and other growth factors from "oozing", satellite cell differentation/profileration, etc.

If those things dont happen, growth doesnt occur. Those reactions go back to there steady levels after 48-72 hours, as well as recovery. So let me see, in HIT i want to wait 2 whole weeks, when these anabolic events go back to place in 2 days? wow, great program.

Lets go into failure now, hmmm did you know there were negatives to failure? CNS inhibits its output, theres too much stress (possibly permenant) in the NMJ and nuerons, motor units firing patterns can be off, your arousal state of mind can be off, etc. Thsoea re just a few, im too tired to think of other ones.

So lets see, we now know that too much intensity and failure is bad, since it leads to less frequency and possibly permenant damage... So what causes growth?

As I said, the reactions that happen after the tension is activated on the sarcolema (stimulating a muscle), is what causes muscle growth, these anabolic events. So this leads up to more frequency whenever possible, not resting a week or more and simply balancing nitrogen levels. thats stupid

Now since we dont train to failure, what do we do?

what you need to do to grow is to condition your muscles to microtruama (then more the next time to avoid the repeated bout effect), how can we get that done?

There are 2 options:
1. go 1-2 reps short of failure, to cut out the negative actions from training to failure, and reap the benefits of training to failure
2. strategic decondition before training, then starting at ligther weights

its a simple manner really, and easy to see through, next time before trying to make some sarcastic comments, brush up on some researhcing, and pull your head out of mentzers... nvm

frequency > intensity

Young

[jukka]

Intensity doesnt build muscle, mechanical load does

I see. So why even go to 1-2 reps shy of failure, if mechanical load is the key?
Shouldn't one go, say, at least 5 reps short of failure? To make sure the CNS won't get taxed too hard + the mechanical load would still be there.

I've put a sh!tload of mechanical load on my muscles in my time,
and got some muscle, but nothing has worked for me like high intensity training.
doing an upper/lower split twice a week takes 4 days.

True words. But, I seriously doubt there's on/off system going on in CNS, so that if you train HIT style, you tax your CNS up to dangerous levels,
whereas not taking your sets to failure is a walk in the park and your CNS just cruises along nicely.
alright, steriods are a miracle drug your right, they enable us to do anything. Steriods have there limits also, I wish people would stop bringing them up everytime someone gains with something different.

I agree, I noticed it pretty soon when I started training at commercial gyms,
that whenever Dude A is bigger/stronger/bigger and stronger than Dude B, Dude B attributes it to steroids.
Still, if ANY other group of athletes had made great progress with Bulgarian system than the Bulgarian lifting team, steroids might not be involved,
but Bulgarians are STILL training like it was the seventies (or like they belonged to US sprinting team), they get caught on drug tests in every event.

As far as how quickly muscles can recover, yeah, they CAN recover in 48 to 72 hours...but it also CAN take up to two weeks for that to happen.
Again it all boils down to the intensity of one's training.

no....the muscle and its chemical properties return to there normal levels in 48-72 hours. It cant take 2 weeks, that would be CNS recovery.

Hmm, that is interesting. I'd like to know where you got that info.
I'm not disputing it, just would like to know.

And still, say your muscles DO recover in only 48 hours, if one follows high-frequency regimen and goes to the gym within that 48 hours,
don't you think that disturbs the recovery process a bit?
And then, while your system is trying to recover from these two workouts,
you go there again, give it yet another workout to recover from.

As if each workout is its own separate thing and they have no common or overlapping effect on your system.

great, time to jump on your tail, seeing it as HIT is one of the most flawed routines out there.

volume isnt the only option next to HIT.

Yeah, I was a tad unclear, what I meant by volume was high volume in either frequency or length of training sesions. Or both.

the only way you will overtrain is if you train too intensly and frequently and too much volume. Balance it out, and you dont overtrain.

Finding that particular balance...how?
By worrying for every set that damn, hope I don't take this too close to failure, and worry each and every set of each and every workout that damn,hope I don't take any of these sets too close to failure, and hope I don't do too many of them, 'cos I've got another session coming up tomorrow and then another one after that...

And if something does go wrong, and you do stagnate. Takes quite a bit of experimenting to find out the good amount of sets when you start with, say, 12.
Hmm, was this too much or too little?
Should I do 14, or 10 instead?
I've been trying to go 2 reps shy of failure, should I try 1 set shy of failure?
Or maybe 3 sets shy of failure?
And for all of my sets or some of them?
etc.

right, but then thats not HIT, thats training to failure... for 3 sets

Dude, HIT is a lot of things, Heavy Duty is HIT, superslow is HIT.
And so is the regular, splitting your body on different workouts
and just doing a few hard sets.

okay, the first thing you need to do is realize how frequency is better then intensity.

Which must be exactly why I never got anywhere with high frequency,
and why HIT is the only method that has worked for me.

Ill start it out like this, what happens when you stimulate a muscle?
chemical, biological, nueral, and mechanical reactions take place. These are mostly beneficial, such as inreased protein turnover/synthesis, release of IGF-1 and other growth factors from "oozing", satellite cell differentation/profileration, etc.

If those things dont happen, growth doesn't occur. Those reactions go back to there steady levels after 48-72 hours, as well as recovery. So let me see, in HIT i want to wait 2 whole weeks, when these anabolic events go back to place in 2 days? wow, great program.

Yeah, and nothing gets those processes going like half-assed training,
JUST when your body has to start struggling, you rack the weight.

Lets go into failure now, hmmm did you know there were negatives to failure? CNS inhibits its output, theres too much stress (possibly permenant) in the NMJ and nuerons, motor units firing patterns can be off, your arousal state of mind can be off, etc. Those are just a few, im too tired to think of other ones.

Yeah, I did know, and so do all the HIT advocates.
That's exactly why the workouts are so few and far between.
AND that's why workout frequency is also regulated as your muscles become stronger and bigger, and the efforts they produce become greater and place greater stress on your system.

This is what I meant when I said that CNS does not operate on on/off principle so that only HIT would make it work and any other form of training would just take CNS to a walk in the park.

And btw, I know this is popular way of thinking in most bodybuilding rags,
but it makes no sense that first your nody goes through all the biochemical processes required to produce growth, then pisses it away after 48 hours, unless you go to gym again.

So lets see, we now know that too much intensity and failure is bad, since it leads to less frequency and possibly permenant damage... So what causes growth?

As I said, the reactions that happen after the tension is activated on the sarcolema (stimulating a muscle), is what causes muscle growth, these anabolic events.

Yup, so the harder the tension, the harder the muscle had to work, the more growth stimulated, and more rest required.

So this leads up to more frequency whenever possible, not resting a week or more and simply balancing nitrogen levels. thats stupid

Yeah, it is stupid, of course you train every chance you get, because all you have to do is place some stress on the muscles and let nature take its course.

Now since we dont train to failure, what do we do?

we go through the web, library, all sources possible to find excuses not to train hard, that's what we do....

what you need to do to grow is to condition your muscles to microtruama (then more the next time to avoid the repeated bout effect), how can we get that done?

There are 2 options:
1. go 1-2 reps short of failure, to cut out the negative actions from training to failure, and reap the benefits of training to failure
2. strategic decondition before training, then starting at ligther weights

its a simple manner really, and easy to see through, next time before trying to make some sarcastic comments, brush up on some researhcing, and pull your head out of mentzers... nvm

now now, keep your pants on. don't let roid rage blur your erroneus thinking

See, I studied at the university for my master's degree, and am still studying...one of the things you learn about scientific research is that A LOT of it today is not as much research as it is maintaining one's job.
You need to get something published to prove you're doing something.
You can tweak the results of any study to any direction you want to.
Just select the guinea pigs you want and formulate your subject thesis appropriately.

So, what is left is for you to read it, decide if it makes sense,
if it does, put it in the practise at the gym.

It's good that you get what you want from working out by hitting the gym constantly and find it worthwhile. I HIT the gym less frequently and get out what I want. AND have time to have a life.