Pain Barrier???

[Axion]

I always hear about pushing through the pain, and belive me I understand this in reference to riding (or other cardio). There comes a point in any high intentisity jaunt where your lungs burn, your legs burn, your heart rate is pegged, you're breathing through your nose and mouth but still can't get enough air. You whole body wants to stop and rest, but all you think in your head is "PUSHHH!"

But in the gym I don't get this. I mostly work in the 4-8 rep range, and usually less then 6 reps at that, so i don't get much of a burn from lifting. Furthermore, if I'm doing a set I usually push as hard as I can each rep getting a little harder to eek out then I fail. Sounds about right except I usually don't feel pain. So what's up? Do I strangely like the feeling of pushing enough that I don't count it as pain(unlikely since arnold talked about pushing through the pain barrier and it'd be silly for me to think i like pushing more then he)? Am I just not pushing hard enough (this seems hard to image since I often push out that one last final rep that doesn't look like it's ever goin up, but somehow does)? What's up?

[threenorns]

the two exercises are not the same.

when you're lifting weights, you're not going for endurance but for overload. if your muscles are burning, that's lactic acid buildup: you've used up all the energy stores. even if your muscles themselves have two or three more reps in them, you can't access that power because it's burned off. the way you're describing it is how it should feel: no pain, just your muscles can't do it any more even though the energy's there. you've then sent the signal that your muscles are inadequate to the job at hand and need to grow in strength and size.

cardio is a totally different matter - once you run out of one energy source and keep pushing, your body has to flip over to another at which point things level out again (if i recall correctly).

[maverick]

I know what you mean Axion. I feel like I've hit a point in that Max-OT-like mentality of overload and 4-6 reps where I might not be getting enough out of it. I feel like the type of training you mentioned has netted me both strength and size gains, but I think I could have had more in terms of size doing something else.

July 11th starts a personal experiement for me to determine if something new might be the way to go. I'm going to be moving away from the Max-OT-like principles and more towards the burn, pain, and pump of bodybuilding workouts. Shocking techniques and volume will be the key. I want to see how I respond. Keep an eye out for a new journal if your interested.

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by threenorns

the two exercises are not the same.
cardio is a totally different matter - once you run out of one energy source and keep pushing, your body has to flip over to another at which point things level out again (if i recall correctly).

Are you refering to the "lactic acic threshold" in cardio, -- the point at which your body can no longer rely on the oxygen base? If you were doing a LAT test on someone, you have them on a treadmill and increase the speed (we start w/ speed before considering incline to keep a constant), at regular intervals and monitor the HR at 60 second intervals. There will be a point where instead of a slow progression upward in HR, there's a sharp incline. Where that point converges on the graph you write is the point at which your "aerobic" exercise becomes "anaerobic."

That's the phase most of us lure ourselves into when we do HIIT, where the whole THRZ thing is not applicable, because for one important reason, HIIT is short duration. This is different than trying to do "all your cardio" at (or all your training straight across the board for that matter) at 90%.

[threenorns]

i knew it was something like that but couldn't think of the details (head's been really foggy the last few days).

[PixlPushr]

I always try to get some intensity out of my weight lifting workout, and will push myself till I just can’t lift the weight anymore..

I’ve never experienced pain from it.. But it gives me a hell of a time when I shower because the arm’s wont move..

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Axion

I always hear about pushing through the pain. But in the gym I don't get this. I mostly work in the 4-8 rep range, and usually less then 6 reps at that, so i don't get much of a burn from lifting.

The pain barrier that most refer to when lifting is the point where you want to hang up the weight, because your mind is telling you it can take no more reps. You must learn to NOT listen to your mind and instead reprogram yourself to tell your mind to "f*ck off" when you get to that point where you want to hang up the weight....and then continue to do more. It is simply mind over matter, but in this case, you have to mentally push yourself beyond where you'd normally go, and then your body will follow. Pushing through the pain barrier is where the REAL growth reps lie. Getting major growth from each and every workout, is all about intensity, and always striving to raise it.

[threenorns]

but i never get pain any more, ever - my muscles simply *will not* work.

[Todd]

What do you mean, they will not *work* anymore? Perhaps you are not working them hard enough during your sets? I feel the pain of high intensity with every working set I do...even if it's only 4 reps, because the weight is heavy enough to make my muscles work rediculously hard right from the first rep!

By the time I get to my last rep, I am squeezing and pushing with everything I got! If I let my mind have it's way, I would stop 2 reps short of what I always do...so I ignore what my mind tells me and I keep going, getting as much as I phyisically can out of each rep of each set.

[threenorns]

no, i mean the weight goes up so many times, gets more difficult, then the arms/legs/whatever just won't do it any more - strain as i might, the bar ain't goin' up for one more curl or one more squat will leave me sitting on the floor. afterward, muscles are very wobbly and hard to control for a minute or so.

but there's no burn, no pain.

possibly attributable to the vast gap between our experience levels?

[Todd]

But, when you are lifting the weights, do you feel the intended muscle group working hard? That is the key to any lift, to make sure the muscle(s) are doing the work, and if they are, you'll surely feel them. It is the good pain, the kind where you know your muscles are getting overloaded optimally.

Well, I guess it could be a little to do with experience level differences, because you do need to establish a mind-to-muscle connection...this kinda ties in with intensity, feeling (and knowing) the muscle is working hard, and it is something that has to be developed and honed in on.

[luke.w]

theres also a differant pain, and thats the real overloading of weightlifting, like heavy lockouts, that is painful especially for your doing holds.

if you set the pins at 1/4-lockout backsquat level loading the bar up to over 600lbs your going to feel pain....pain that most who step into the gym don't want, as soon as that weight is lifted your back feels like it's going to break literiley, the area were the bar is resting on your back hurts,the mid-section and quads are burning.
Then theres grip training (very painful), there are times when my hands are fried carrying plates and from lifting, no wonder people use straps.
partial deadlifts are painful too.

These are the above methods I used to build my deadlifts and make my entire body stronger, I don't know how I'll be later in life, (I feel great today) but I know middleaged guys who train just like me, I also no reg. folks (don't workout at all) who are having back surgurys from lifting cases of soda all thier lives, they must have been lifting very wrong, if I had to deal with that, I'd want it to be worthwhile, I'd rather have problems from lifting super heavy objects, than mere soda cases he!he!

oh yeah, strength endurance training is mad mad painful, like when your ready to hurl, been there, done that, many a times.

[PixlPushr]

Originally Posted by Todd

The pain barrier that most refer to when lifting is the point where you want to hang up the weight, because your mind is telling you it can take no more reps. You must learn to NOT listen to your mind and instead reprogram yourself to tell your mind to "f*ck off" when you get to that point where you want to hang up the weight....and then continue to do more. It is simply mind over matter, but in this case, you have to mentally push yourself beyond where you'd normally go, and then your body will follow. Pushing through the pain barrier is where the REAL growth reps lie. Getting major growth from each and every workout, is all about intensity, and always striving to raise it.

I don’t get it no matter how hard I try..

As much as I want to push / pull / lift the weight, and it wont budge an inch, no matter how contorted my face looks, and the weird grunting noises that might happen..

And if I’m feeling good, on occasion I’ll drop the weight down a bit, do a couple more till they wont move, drop them down some more.. and do that until I can’t even lift the 10 pounds. (Of course, that’s when the hot chick walks by and sees me no able to lift 10 pounds )

And even after all of that, I’ve never had any “pain”. Muscle soreness maybe, but nothing that you wouldn’t expect..

[threenorns]

Originally Posted by Todd

But, when you are lifting the weights, do you feel the intended muscle group working hard? That is the key to any lift, to make sure the muscle(s) are doing the work, and if they are, you'll surely feel them. It is the good pain, the kind where you know your muscles are getting overloaded optimally.

Well, I guess it could be a little to do with experience level differences, because you do need to establish a mind-to-muscle connection...this kinda ties in with intensity, feeling (and knowing) the muscle is working hard, and it is something that has to be developed and honed in on.

oh, i feel them working - reps get harder until i just can't do it any more. i have a different approach that really helps. i *never* think "lift the weight" - i only think "bend your arms" or "straighten your legs" or whatever the movement is supposed to be. i find that goes far to stopping other muscles from coming in to cheat the load. it's harder with compound movements like the squat, though.

[Cort]

There's a slight difference in pushing out those last few reps and running yourself to failure (aka your muscles just physically wont respond to the weight anymore.)

Higher weight and less reps usually results in less of a "burn" for me, but at the same time at the end of my workout I feel like I got a great workout.

If you are no longer getting results following a certain program, modify it or switch to something different. If you do the same things over and over again without trying anything new you will suffer from diminishing returns eventually.