Question regarding frequency of training.

[Vas85]

Hey everyone, just a quick question in need of some good advice,

If i currently train each bodypart once a week but for example with my upperbody i normally feel fully recovered within 2days so that i feel ready to workout again 3-4days later. My question is whether i should increase my frequency to a 3day - 4day split so that i'm training twice a week? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[Iain]

Give this a read - http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do...ba13?id=499987

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Vas85

Hey everyone, just a quick question in need of some good advice,

If i currently train each bodypart once a week but for example with my upperbody i normally feel fully recovered within 2days so that i feel ready to workout again 3-4days later. My question is whether i should increase my frequency to a 3day - 4day split so that i'm training twice a week? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

So how would your mapped weekly workout schedule look?

[Cort]

How important is it to have the exact days mapped out, currently for me I'm unable to work on the same exact day each week as my schedule with work is constantly changing and my school schedule, while unchanging, makes it hard to work with.

As of now I've just been going on a Workout 1, 2, 3, and 4 sort of setup where I set my goal for the week to get each day completed when I can, which is almost never on the same day as the previous week.

[Klinger]

Originally Posted by Iain

Give this a read - http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do...ba13?id=499987

Interesting read, Iain. Thanks for posting. I'd love to see an example of a full-body workout if you have one in your routines.

Vas - I recently switched to a standard upper/lower split after doing a standard chest-tris/back-bis/legs routine for several weeks. It's too soon for me to report on results, but I like the fact that it lets me work each body part every four days. It looks like this:

Day 1: upper
Day 2: cardio or off
Day 3: lower
Day 4: cardio or off
(repeat)

[Iain]

Here goes Klinger:

Monday
A Back squat.
B Pull-throughs.
C1 Dips.
C2 Pull-ups.
High rep ab work

Wednesday
A1 Flat bench.
A2 Seated row.
B Goodmorning.
C1 Snatch-grip behind neck press.
C2 Shrugs.
Rotator work.

Friday
A Front squat.
B Snatch grip deadlift from blocks.
C1 Incline bench.
C2 Face pulls.
Weighted incline crunches

----------

My own devising, haven't got the volume right yet. Basically I'll try to hit the muscles with a variety of rep/set ranges throughout the week.

Did my first session on this today. I sweated a lot, but it was very efficient - 45mins to total exhaustion. I'm going to bed.

[Vas85]

Hmmm guys, ill tell u my split right now

Tuseday - Calfs / Back / Shoulders
Thursday - Chest / Bi's / Forearms
Friday - Tri's / Traps / Abs
Saturday - UpperLegs (Quads Hams)

It might seem like abit of an unco routine but its given me 13kg of muscle mass increase, but like i mentioned about more than 1 bodypart a week i trained bi's yesterday (monday) becuase i felt they were already overly rested and felt perfect for including another bi workout 4days after.

any thoughts guys?? Todd?

like i feel great right now after adding the bi workout and i'm not broken sore yesterday ill explain how i trained it in a second.

[Vas85]

Last week on the Thursday when i did Bi's i was doing mainly Barbell workouts and i was warming up with 12reps then hitting my "aim for 8 minimum 6" sets and i pumped out like 6 sets in total (increasing in weight each set).

And then yesterday's workout i was doing it more maxOT style were i warmed up with 10 and did "aim for 6 minimum 4" were i increased the weights as i went and on my final set did 4 (and i noticed i was able to lift alot more than thursday's workout).

So i think i did contrasting workouts were last Thursdays was Barbell + Cambered Bar lifts (wide grip) and Monday's 1 that i did was Dumbells (mostly incline db curls) and warming up with standing alternate curls.

and like mentioned by KLINGER about doing UPPERBODY on 1 day and LOWERBODY on another, dude i find it slightly too taxing, once i have done Benchpress for example, i feel like i'm tips just need to rest and relax which is why i do bi's before (the smaller bodypart) then the pectorials.

I think its physically too taxing to do whole upperbody and lower on invidividual days.

[Iain]

I think its physically too taxing to do whole upperbody and lower on invidividual days.

Depends on how many exercises you are trying to do.

If you are trying to do 3x8-12 on squat, leg press, stiff-leg, leg extensions, calf raises etc then yes the workout will take a while and you probably won't get through it. Doing big basic exercises though can be done.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Vas85

any thoughts guys?? Todd?

Hey man, if it's working for you, then continue on. I know for me personally though, I would not want to do that sort of split because I would not be able to apply 100% intensity and focus on the days where 2 major body parts are being worked. I feel that in order for me to get the most muscle stimulation for back, chest, and shoulders, that they have to be grouped with only 1 smaller body part...I just cannot get the same quality of results by doing back, chest, and/or shoulders on the same day with each other or with more than 1 other smaller body part.

I know that if I were to try to do that, I would either ...
a) be in the gym too long
b) not be able to give the required volume or intensity that is required
c) would run out of gas
d) each body part would not receive the kind of stimulation what I know would be possible if I had them grouped separate from each other or with only 1 smaller muscle group.

But that is just me. Like I say, if you can get awesome gains from doing it the way you've explained, then by all means keep doing it...for sure!

[Vas85]

cool thanks Todd any others for your replies

[Kyle C]

Originally Posted by FortifiedIron

Its very easy to train each body part 4x's a wk. I will be squatting anywhere from 3-6x's a wk on overhead squats, back squats, and front squats. That does not include my drop snatch lifts and other movements. I'll also be training full body 4-6x's a wk. I WILL make strength gains and will do so effectivly.

See I train based on the Fitness Fatigue principle/model. Which states that fatigue accumlates over time during periods of stressful training and dissipates over time. You cant do this without understand how the training volume and intensity (loading based on %) effect the human structure. The reason this works is it disrupts the orginal state of the body and systems. The way you apply this is using short loading and unload cycles in a wave fashion or other form of loading. During the wave loading the intensity will peak placing a large stress on the body for a brief period of time, once that state is achived its then best to deload to allow for the body to recovery. During the time of the peak youa re in a state of overreaching or mild overtraining. This is when periods of tapering is key to stop the fatigue effect happening. It all comes down to biochemical signals in the body, ie Test/Cortisol and Glutamate/Glutamine ratios. Hence the fatigue is gone during the deloading, however the fitness is increased gradually. This allows one to do more in a shorter period of time and see results much sooner and much more fully.

From my obseravtion 8-10 wks is ideal for this type of training if waved correctly. Here is an example of a bodybuilding program with increased frequency and volume.

Week 1-2 (regular training)
Upper day 1:
Bench Press 3x6
Close grip 3x6
Push down 3x6
DB shrugs 3x6
Weighted pull ups 3xF
Military Press 3x6
Preacher Curls 3x6

Upper day 2:
Incline Press 3x6
Fly’s 3x6
Triceps extensions 3x6
Barbell Shrug 3x6
Upright Rows 3x6
Push Press 3x6
Barbell Curl 3x6

Lower day 1:
Squat 3x6
Leg Press 3x6
Good morning 3x6
Glut Ham Raise 3x6
Straight Leg Deadlift 3x6

Lower day 2:
Deadlift 3x6
Front Squat 3x6
Weighted Step-ups 3x6
High Pull 3x6
Standing Calf Raises 3x10


Loading phase 3-4 weeks
Upper day 1:
Flat bench 3x8
Skull Crushers 3x8
Iso-metric Plate raises 3x6 (5 Second pause at top)
Power Shrugs 3x8
Lat Pull downs 3x8
Bicep Curls 3x8

Upper day 2:
Incline DB press 3x8
Barbell overhead extensions 3x8
Barbell Curls 3x8
Iso-metric DB shrugs 5x5 (5 second pause at top)
Upright Rows 3x8
Push Press 3x8

Upper day 3:
Decline Bench Press 3x8
Weighted Dips 3x8
Preacher Curls 3x8
Seated DB Press 3x8
Dumbell Rows 3x8

Lower day 1:
Squat 3x8
Good Morning 3x8
Glut Ham Raise 3x8
Seated Calf Raises 5x10

Lower day 2:
Deadlift 3x8
Front Squat 3x8
Weighted Step-ups 3x8
Standing Calf Raises 5x10

Lower day 3:
Leg Press 3x8
Straight Leg Deadlift 3x8
Glut Ham raise 3x8
Seated Calf Raises 5x10


Tapering 5-6 weeks

Upper day 1:
Bench 2x10
Close grip 2x10
Military Press 2x10
Upright row 2x10
Hammer Curls 2x10

Lower day 1:
Squat 2x10
Deadlift 2x10
Glut Ham raise 1x10
GM 2x10


Here is the studies to prove this type of training.

Durell DL, Pujol TJ, Barnes JT: A survey of the scientific data and training methods utilized by collegiate strength and conditioning coaches. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 May; 17(2): 368-73.

Chernyak A, Karomov E & Butchinov 1979 Distribution of load volume and intensity thoughtout the year Tyazkhelaya Altlaetika: 15-17

Costill, D.L., Flynn, M.G., Kirwan, J.P., Houmard, J.A., Mitchell, J.B., Thomas, R. & Park, S.H. (1988). Effect of repeated days of intensified training on muscle glycogen and swimming performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 20, 249-254.

Gotovtseva EP, Surkina ID, Uchakin PN: Potential interventions to prevent immunosuppression during training, in RB Kreider, AC Fry, ML O'Toole, (eds): Overtraining in Sport. Champaign, IL, Human Kinetics Publishers, 1998, pp 243-272.

Ebben WP, Blackard DO: Strength and conditioning practices of National Football League strength and conditioning coaches. J Strength Cond Res. 2001 Feb; 15(1): 48-58.

Fry AC, Kraemer WJ, Stone MH, Warren BJ, Fleck SJ, Kearney JT, and Gordon SE: Endocrine Responses to Overreaching Before and After 1 Year of Weighlifting. Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology, 1994, 19(4): 400-410.

Fry RW, Morton AR, Keast D: Periodisation and the prevention of overtraining. Can J Sport Sci. 1992 Sep; 17(3): 241-8

Fry RW, Morton AR, Keast : Periodisation of training stress--a review. Can J Sport Sci. 1992 Sep; 17(3): 234-40

Fry RW, Morton AR, Keast D: Overtraining in athletes. An update. Sports Med. 1991 Jul; 12(1): 32-65

Hakkinen K, Kallinen M, Komi PV, Kauhanen H: Neuromuscular adaptations during short-term "normal" and reduced training periods in strength athletes. Electromyogr Clin Neurophysiol. 1991 Jan-Feb; 31(1): 35-42

Houmard JA: Impact of reduced training on performance in endurance athletes. Sports Med 1991;12(6):380-393

Kibler WB, Chandler TJ: Sport-specific conditioning. Am J Sports Med. 1994 May-Jun; 22(3): 424-32.

Kraemer WJ, Hakkinen K, Triplett-Mcbride NT, Fry AC, Koziris LP, Ratamess NA, Bauer JE, Volek JS, McConnell T, Newton RU, Gordon SE, Cummings D, Hauth J, Pullo F, Lynch JM, Fleck SJ, Mazzetti SA, Knuttgen HG: Physiological changes with periodized resistance training in women tennis players. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Jan; 35(1): 157-68; Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 May;35(5):889

Kreider RB, Fry AC, O'Toole ML: Overtraining and overreaching in sport: terms, definitions, and prevalence, in Kreider RB, Fry AC, O'Toole ML (eds): Overtraining in Sport. Champaign, IL, Human Kinetics, 1998, pp vii-ix

Siff M C (2000) "Supertraining" Fifth Edition; Supertraining Institute

Smith DJ: A framework for understanding the training process leading to elite performance. Sports Med. 2003; 33(15): 1103-26

Zatsiorsky V (1995) Science and Practice of Strength Training Human Kinetics


If you would look you could see a cude method based on this exact thing only with a different form of loading in HST. The only thing I dont like about his training is he doese not spend enough time in heavy loading.

Also, I have plenty of results from people who've done this program and gained a great deal. (One off the top of my head gained 25 pounds.)

Kc

Taken from a post of mine on another forum. The problem is people dont know how to structure their training correctly therefor they are the first to miss apply this and jump on the "it wont work" bandwagon.

Kc

[IronMan]

Informative post, Kyle. Thanks for bringing it over.

[Vas85]

hmm thats interesting Kyle how you have divided upperbody and lowerbody into sections.

[Kyle C]

Here is a nice update.. actually a HUGE update to my training structure.

Hormonal Fluctuation Model
A higher testosterone to cortisol ratio correlates with increases of maximal strength performance

Hakkinen KA, Pskarinen A, Alen M, Kau hanen H, Komi PV (1987). Relationships between training volume, physical performance capacity, and serum hormone concentrations during prolonged training in elite weight lifters. International Journal of Sports Medicine, 8 (suppli): 61-65.

30% drop in Testosterone/Cortisol Ratio is proposed to be too extreme for effective recovery of performance after training
Changes of less that 10% in Testosterone/Cortisol Ratio is proposed to be too small and lead to lesser performance improvements
Performance should be optimal if period of training can be adjusted to lower T/C ratio between 10-30% that is followed by a period of recovery.

Glutamine/Glutamate Ratio and Overtraining
GN/GT ratio >5.88 = Normal
GN/GT ratio >3.58 <5.88 = Adaptation
GN/GT ratio <3.58 for <2 weeks = Over Reaching
GN/GT ratio <3.58 for >2 weeks = Over Training
Lon Kilgore, Ph.D., Midwestern State University, Exercise Science Laboratories and USA Weightlifting Regional Development Center, Wichita Falls, Texas.

Nope.. I gathered something yesterday from some studies and research.

Take your normal heart rate for a wk following a two week period of tappering. Gather the average heart rate. The test should be done in the morning as soon as you wake up. During aperiod of heavy training monitor your heart rate and if there is a considerable amount of increase then is time for deloading. However that is only a theory and Im looking for informaiton on how Test/Cortisol impact heart rate.

Kc

This is a huge step! However is effective? For the next several days im going to be going deeper into my research with this and see if their is a link to this. However, there is also other parameters and variables to access here.

Kc