real life practicality of squats and deadlifts

[.V.]

Just do the trap bar deadlifts or the farmers implement deads - or if you can manage the form DB deads held like farmers implements. See how it turns out. It IS your workout, your legs, your back. All of the suggestions are good, all of the suggestions are valid. But it is your body and you know your body better than any of us possibly could from reading posts on the internet...besides, I really want to hear about trap bar shrugs and find out if getting one would be worth the drive.

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Just do the trap bar deadlifts or the farmers implement deads - or if you can manage the form DB deads held like farmers implements. See how it turns out. It IS your workout, your legs, your back. All of the suggestions are good, all of the suggestions are valid. But it is your body and you know your body better than any of us possibly could from reading posts on the internet...besides, I really want to hear about trap bar shrugs and find out if getting one would be worth the drive.

Well I can tell you one thing, I wouldn't spend the money on the trap bar just for the shrugs! They are like shrugs with dbs I guess...your hands are in a parallel grip, so the weight is more in line with your body. If you like the feeling you get doing shrugs with dbs, and want to use a lot of weight, then the trap bar is great for shrugs. But I wouldn't spend $150+ on the bar just for shrugs...

[.V.]

Originally Posted by rangers97

They are like shrugs with dbs I guess...your hands are in a parallel grip, so the weight is more in line with your body. If you like the feeling you get doing shrugs with dbs, and want to use a lot of weight, ..

There's the ticket. I like the feeling on the traps with DB's. But I can't pick up enough weight with DB's from the floor without hurting my back. Don't have any idea why but a pair of 135's kills my back. 275 on the bar from the rack is easy. Even from the floor - it isn't that bad. I do think DBs hit the traps better than a BB though since they are held to the sides - it's like getting front shrugs and rear shrugs in one set...almost.

[luke.w]

Originally Posted by rangers97

I don't think anyone truly WANTS to do either, we do them because we know for a fact how important they are. I don't look forward to either exercise like I do for other exercises, but that's a fact of life.

are you kidding me, I'm loving the "deep knee bend" and am looking very forward to doing a 20repper.

it really sounds like you have form issues and are loading on too much weight. I stayed away from trying to heavy squat because I just didn't have the form, I enjoyed the variations more (the exercises that taught me how to squat) now I enjoy and look forward to all of it, and WANT, CAN"T WAIT to do it.

leave the "I must have a brutal session" at the door and learn this stuff "if you really want to squat" if you don't really ever want to squat or deadlift then no one can help you, stick to the machines.

[tim_mcf]

I say do either #3 or #4.

[Klinger]

More proof that Luke is crazy - and I mean that in a good way. :

He's got a great point though. You might enjoy it more if you mix up styles to work your legs and keep it fresh.

I think most folks follow set routines (3x6 every week, for example) because they get a kick out of increasing the weight from month to month. That's cool, and it's valid way to track progress, but I find that to be boring.

I'm only interested in functional strength and fitness and, to a small degree, aesthetics. I look at every workout as a challenge and I want every challenge to be novel.

For example: I'd rather do 20-rep squats one time, heavy cleans the next time and box jumps the time after that (which is what I did in my last 3 workouts) than the same old squat routine each time out. My way still works the legs and core -- and it's much less likely to get stale.

I'm just saying don't get caught up in the numbers game. I burned out on chasing numbers a year or so ago (as puny as those numbers were), but I'm much happier and healthier since I decided to chase overall fitness and strength instead.

[rangers97]

I appreciate everyone's input into this topic. I think I might be close to figuring something out that might work well for me. I will write about it in my journal...

And yes, it's going to include squats AND deads

[luke.w]

[quote=Klinger
I'm only interested in functional strength and fitness and, to a small degree, aesthetics. I look at every workout as a challenge and I want every challenge to be novel.

For example: I'd rather do 20-rep squats one time, heavy cleans the next time and box jumps the time after that (which is what I did in my last 3 workouts) than the same old squat routine each time out. My way still works the legs and core -- and it's much less likely to get stale.

I'm just saying don't get caught up in the numbers game. I burned out on chasing numbers a year or so ago (as puny as those numbers were), but I'm much happier and healthier since I decided to chase overall fitness and strength instead.[/QUOTE]




good post man, I'm getting pretty close to my limits on most of the exercies I'm doing, I don't really want to know my limits on the ATG pause squat yet (keeps it interesting for me) I don't want to go right in and bang out 20 all out reps and then dred it the next time, I want to build up for a little bit and hit that intense breathing squat 20repper (it would get old and mentally become a problem doing that every single week).

It has taken me 5years to finally squat "right" and I'm not talking about them wide stance parallel PLing squats, I'm talking about ATG sitting (ass nearly touching calves) paused squats. 4-years ago I was doing what I saw in "pumping iron" (which BTW is the worst demstration of lifting except Ed Cory's squats where decent) I'd get up to 250 narrow stance parallel (above really) then started getting to 300x8 with that form, it was a disater, enough was enough.

ego, whether it's looks or strength must be left at the door, if you want success in the long run, I garentee anyone that learns to ATG 250-300 "correctly" with a pause will absolutly look forward to every squat session.

[maverick]

I don't know luke, those 20 reppers are addicting. You may not get sick of 'em. I have the same kinda masochistic desire to bang out those heaving reps. Don't get so high and mighty (didn't want it to sound that negative, but I can't think of a better way to say it) about the "right" squats though. Wide stance parallel squats are a great way to gain strength and add overall mass. Provided you are actually getting parallel. It made me cringe today when I saw one of the fresh outta high school trainers at my gym and his trainee. He was watching the squats the trainer was doing and they were painful to watch. Tipping way forward, no tight arch, a 1/3 squat at best. He's a nice guy, the trainer that is, but he doesn't know what the hell he's doing!

I personally like the switch between PL-like squats and ATG squats, though I never did them with a pause. Perhaps something I may incorporate when my current squating plateaus. I'm assuming you started way light when you first started doing these? How long do you stay at the bottom?

[luke.w]

well mav. the problem with doing "breathing" 20reppers week after week (for me) is the muscle sorness and other training I like to do, right now I'm flipping my tire for 10+reps and working up to 13+ (never done 13 before) I don't know whats worse 20reppers or that tire flip for high reps (20reppers the weight stays on you, I can support 900, the tire you get that second to breath without the resistance, but you really don't want to flip it again, you force yourself for another flip), I guess at "MY" stage I could enjoy the 20reppers more often, but like a said I want to save it in my arsenal, I'm staying hungry for it.

sure the wide stance parallel PLing stuff is good, however I wouldn't have someone with a weak core doing them, they are much,much better off starting them from the bottom position I like to switch them also, but there is nothing like the "deep knee bend", I started them using overhead squats,front squats and built the strength from the bottom position half/quater heavier stuff, I sit with it for 3sec around.

The real problem with those squats (and it shows in some meets) is the ego starts getting the best of people and they slowly get higher and higher.

[maverick]

Originally Posted by luke.w

sure the wide stance parallel PLing stuff is good, however I wouldn't have someone with a weak core doing them, they are much,much better off starting them from the bottom position I like to switch them also, but there is nothing like the "deep knee bend", I started them using overhead squats,front squats and built the strength from the bottom position half/quater heavier stuff, I sit with it for 3sec around.

3 seconds, nice. I think that may be rangers issue, having a relatively weak core. You're a monster on the bench, but I think your deadlift and squat are comparable and thats kinda off kilter. I think some extra focus on your core and deep squats with a lighter weight will be exactly what you need.

Originally Posted by luke.w

The real problem with those squats (and it shows in some meets) is the ego starts getting the best of people and they slowly get higher and higher.

Amen. Been there, done that. Now whenever I know I've reached the point where thats going happen, I switch to the ATG squats.

[luke.w]

Originally Posted by luke.w

well mav. the problem with doing "breathing" 20reppers week after week (for me) is the muscle sorness and other training I like to do, right now I'm flipping my tire for 10+reps and working up to 13+ (never done 13 before) I don't know whats worse 20reppers or that tire flip for high reps (20reppers the weight stays on you, I can support 900, the tire you get that second to breath without the resistance, but you really don't want to flip it again, you force yourself for another flip), I guess at "MY" stage I could enjoy the 20reppers more often, but like a said I want to save it in my arsenal, I'm staying hungry for it.

I hit 14flips with my 680lb tire sunday (yesturday) I really took my time on the first 7flips (thats really the only way to get better at more flips right now, and keep improving) the last 4 I didn't rest much at all, I was smoked after it, (I dry heeved alittle) but recovered fairly quickly.

before the tire flip I did some ATG squats with a pause for 4reps, and then did some bottom position partials (14-15"ROM) for 4reps.

If I keep working like that I think I can build up to a very nice 20repper with some decent weight, only with a heavier weight a 20repper should carry over well for me.

[rangers97]

i have a question about the 20 reppers....

How did it become such a "glory" movement? Who decided one day that it would be fun to try to hit 20 rep sets on squats? lol

I understand they can test your willpower like nothing else. But are they really the best things for your legs? To me, it seems like it is a test of endurance and will power more than anything else.

From a bodybuilding point of view, if the theory is that legs respnd well to high reps, why 20? Why not 3 sets of 10 on squats. Certainly that will produce as much or more leg growth than one set of 20 reps.

Luke and Dan, I might be able to see how this would help you out, especially with things like tire flipping and events where there is about a minute or longer duration, as you would need the benefits of a heavy weight, high endurance exercise that worked the entire body. But for regular bodybuilders and such, does this 20 rep set provide some kind of actual leg muscle stimulus that a heavier weight for 3 sets of whatever can't accomplish?

[luke.w]

why wonldn't a bb'er want to improve willpower and mental toughness? don't you think stronger willpower and mental toughness will enahance a bb'ers performance in the gym?

[rangers97]

sure, but that doesnt answer the question...

there are plenty of ways to gain willpower and desire other than a set of 20 rep squats