real life practicality of squats and deadlifts

[luke.w]

20+reps in the squat will do something differant to the body, high rep tire flips,cleans and presses, all will change someone.

Maybe you should slowly start building up to a 20repper and then do a cycle for yourself and then you will beable to answer your own questions.

and 20reps doesn't have to be "the number" it could be 23 25 or 18. it's all about setting a number in your head and going for it. though if you only do 18 it'd nice to come back next session and hit 20.

[Dan C]

Are you a bodybuilder now, Ranger? Or are you just playing devil's advocate?

I believe the benefit of 20-rep squats is how you are constantly under a load. Is this not the theory behind the GH & testosterone increases that make squats such an overall mass builder?

Done correctly, 20 reps squats are done with your 10-rep max, but you hold the weight on your back and grind out an additional ten. It may take you 10-15 seconds in between reps... think of it as a full body workout, not just an exercise for the legs.

[maverick]

Originally Posted by rangers97

From a bodybuilding point of view, if the theory is that legs respnd well to high reps, why 20? Why not 3 sets of 10 on squats. Certainly that will produce as much or more leg growth than one set of 20 reps.

Obviously you have never attempted a 20 rep set as Dan has detailed.

Like Luke said, the 20 reps is not a hard set limit, its just a goal. Believe me, if I didn't set it as my goal, I'd be stopping at 14 or 15. But somehow when you make it seem like life or death in head that you must reach 20, strength and willpower you didn't know you had comes out when you reach that "I wanna stop so bad" point around 14 or 15. And when you keep pushing, every rep feels like an achievement and I swear you can actual feel your muscles growing. I feel stimulation in my quads from 20 reppers that no other combination of rep ranges, sets, shocks, or anything has ever achieved. Do I know for a fact that these are the best? No. But there's a lot of guys way bigger than me with 10 times the experience from themselves and their trainees that swear by high reps for leg growth. I'm willing to give it a shot and see if what they claim works for me.

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by Dan C

Are you a bodybuilder now, Ranger? Or are you just playing devil's advocate?

I believe the benefit of 20-rep squats is how you are constantly under a load. Is this not the theory behind the GH & testosterone increases that make squats such an overall mass builder?

Done correctly, 20 reps squats are done with your 10-rep max, but you hold the weight on your back and grind out an additional ten. It may take you 10-15 seconds in between reps... think of it as a full body workout, not just an exercise for the legs.

I am just trying to learn a little more, something I didn't know or understand...so sure, I am playing devils advocate here

what you described would be one hell of a full body workout, but I thought the purpose of squats was to develop your legs and core musculature, not improve cardiovascular health>?

Question: Why are these 20 rep squats pretty much the only exercise that suggests doing a movement with less weight than you are capable of for more reps than anyone would even consider doing on any other exercise?

IMO, if you want to go this route, I think you would be better served doing 10 rep squats with your 6 rep max. 20 brings too much cardio health into the equation, and less on the muscles themselves, I think...

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by maverick

Obviously you have never attempted a 20 rep set as Dan has detailed.

Like Luke said, the 20 reps is not a hard set limit, its just a goal. Believe me, if I didn't set it as my goal, I'd be stopping at 14 or 15. But somehow when you make it seem like life or death in head that you must reach 20, strength and willpower you didn't know you had comes out when you reach that "I wanna stop so bad" point around 14 or 15. And when you keep pushing, every rep feels like an achievement and I swear you can actual feel your muscles growing. I feel stimulation in my quads from 20 reppers that no other combination of rep ranges, sets, shocks, or anything has ever achieved. Do I know for a fact that these are the best? No. But there's a lot of guys way bigger than me with 10 times the experience from themselves and their trainees that swear by high reps for leg growth. I'm willing to give it a shot and see if what they claim works for me.

Agreed on the willpower part Mav....but I have a question--without going back into your journal, what is your best multiple rep squat performance? (multiple as in more than 3 reps)

[maverick]

Originally Posted by rangers97

Agreed on the willpower part Mav....but I have a question--without going back into your journal, what is your best multiple rep squat performance? (multiple as in more than 3 reps)

What do you mean? Like whats the most recent weights I've been using? I think I did 275 x 7 with controlled negatives recently.

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by maverick

What do you mean? Like whats the most recent weights I've been using? I think I did 275 x 7 with controlled negatives recently.

I guess the point I am getting at is, what were you more impressed doing? The 20 repper or the heaviest set for reps you ever did? I don't remember, but I think you got over 300 for reps, so let's say you were able to do 315 for 6 reps....

Which felt more empowering when finished--the 315 x 6 or the 205 x 20 you did on your last DC workout?

[maverick]

Whoa, I never did 315 x 6. I never consistently got better than 300 x 6 when I was doing Max-OT and they were the first exercise and had questionable form on the last rep. What I'm doing now is a whole different animal. That aside, 205 x 20 is still infinitely more empowering than any 6 rep set I'll probably ever do.

You have to remember that now my training focuses strongly on controlled negatives which may bite of a rep or two. And quads come last in these workouts. Plus, this was my first go around with 20 reppers, so I set my baseline low. I expect to be hitting 225 x 20 within the next 2 weeks. Gotta check the ego a lot of times if you wanna grow.

And like I said, this is new, I'm trying it out. That said, I really like it so far.

[Klinger]

At the end of a 20-repper you are burning all over your body -- traps, shoulders, arms, lower back, abs -- it's a real treat.

More than anything I think the 20-repper lets you bust through mental dams. Yes it builds endurance, but it also teaches you how to use your mind to block out pain and fatigue for a lengthy stretch.

[rangers97]

ok tell you what--just for $hits and giggles, today is my leg day, so instead of doing a max-ot leg workout (which I am staying away from cause of my back anyway), I am going to load up the bar with 225 and see how many squats I can do in good form. When I am done, I will post comments in my journal about how I felt after doing these and what I noticed.

There is no point in continuing arguing against high rep squats if I have no basis to argue on.

So I'll try them and I will give an honest critique.

[Dan C]

Well? How'd the 20 rep squats go Ranger?

[maverick]

He didn't do it, back problems. Though I did yesterday. I got 225 x 19. I blame luke for missing the last one. I got to 15 and felt like I had very little left. But at that moment I became aware of something luke said. He was saying that as those 20 reppers go on, too many people tend to do their reps higher and higher. With that in mind, my last reps were the deepest of the bunch, somewhere between parallel and ATG, well below parallel. They were all single reps from that point on since my legs were screaming and my lungs were burning. I got to the 20th attempt and the rep was so deep that I hit the safety pins on both sides. I pushed up a few inches, but I hit complete muscular, no respiratory, failure. I literally had nothing left. The bar slammed down to the pins and I dropped ot one knee, heaving like a maniac.

That stupid luke angel (or devil) sitting on my shoulder saying "You know it defeats the purpose if you don't go deep enough". He cost me a rep, but I'll take that 225 x 19 over any 20 repper I've done to date. Redefined my max intensity with that one.

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by Dan C

Well? How'd the 20 rep squats go Ranger?

Yep, as Mav said, I bailed out on rep 6 of the set, since I knew it wasn't going to happen.

To tell you the truth, I really have no desire to attempt it ever again. My main concern right now is finding a way that I can include squatting and deadlifting both into my weekly plan without hurting my back.

I dropped my squat weight significantly, and will just slowly work my way back up. I also ordered a "Sting Ray" device online, and I will be incorporating some front squatting into my routine as well, since I hear these *may or may not be* easier on the back since you are in a more upright position.

The problem I might have been having was not spacing my feet far enough apart on the back squats. Since I had it in my head to try to keep the stance relatively narrow for my quads, I might have been screwing myself up. Widening the stance made it a lot easier on my back.

So what I might try next week will be 2-3 sets of back squats with the wider stance, then 2-3 sets of front squats with a somewhat narrower stance and see how that goes.

I am off today from weights, and back day is tomorrow where I will attempt my deadlifts. Instead of strict Max-ot methods, I might start with a 3x3 on the deads at the end of my back routine, to see how that goes and adjust from there...

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by maverick

He didn't do it, back problems. Though I did yesterday. I got 225 x 19. I blame luke for missing the last one. I got to 15 and felt like I had very little left. But at that moment I became aware of something luke said. He was saying that as those 20 reppers go on, too many people tend to do their reps higher and higher. With that in mind, my last reps were the deepest of the bunch, somewhere between parallel and ATG, well below parallel. They were all single reps from that point on since my legs were screaming and my lungs were burning. I got to the 20th attempt and the rep was so deep that I hit the safety pins on both sides. I pushed up a few inches, but I hit complete muscular, no respiratory, failure. I literally had nothing left. The bar slammed down to the pins and I dropped ot one knee, heaving like a maniac.

That stupid luke angel (or devil) sitting on my shoulder saying "You know it defeats the purpose if you don't go deep enough". He cost me a rep, but I'll take that 225 x 19 over any 20 repper I've done to date. Redefined my max intensity with that one.

Awesome! Nice work! Better to reach momentary muscular failure at 19, than to get 20 and know you could have done more.

[maverick]

Originally Posted by rangers97

Yep, as Mav said, I bailed out on rep 6 of the set, since I knew it wasn't going to happen.

To tell you the truth, I really have no desire to attempt it ever again. My main concern right now is finding a way that I can include squatting and deadlifting both into my weekly plan without hurting my back.

Well don't blame your back then if you aren't planning on doing a 20 repper. Like you said yourself, its hard to comment on the effectiveness of an exercise/workout/whatever if you have never tried it.