"The Pump" (e.g., I.C.E.) vs. "Overload" (e.g., Max-OT)

[dh003i]

Arg, the information out there is completely contradictory from one program and page to another. I'm not aiming for just blowing up muscles, and not actually getting any stronger. I'd like to get stronger, and have it show. But strength is only a measure of how much force (pounds, newtons) one can exert, and how much work (watts, joules) one can do. There's also speed, how fast on can move, and reaction time. There's toughness or endurance, a measure of how long a given intensity can be maintained. And there's power, how much work one can do in a given time.

The guys who've created the Max-OT program argue that "the pump" isn't beneficial to real muscle growth and increase in strength, but that it's actually harmful for several reasons:

• The burning sensation is actually lactic acid, which is harmful to the muscle, and impedes muscle-growth.
• When you feel "the pump", your muscle has been fatigued, thus expended an enormous amount of energy. This inhibits the ability to stimulate overload and all of the muscle fibers in the next set. It also inhibits the ability of the muscle to recover and repair afterwards, thus it's ability to grow.
• The pump "pressure" is the result of blood being trapped in the muscle. This reduces the nutrients that can get to the muscle, and the oxygen that gets to it, thus is harmful.

On the other hand, advocates of I.C.E. argue that the pump is essential for stimulating muscle growth, increasing strength, and becoming bigger and more muscular. They argue:

• A muscle becomes over-saturated with blood and it doesn't flow out as fast as it flows in. When you take your post-workout nutrition it goes through the bloodstream and slows down where the pump is, allowing that particular muscle to absorb more of the nutrients than the rest of your body, thereby assuring a better recovery of that days workout.
• Arnold Schwarzeneggar used the pump to obtain his excellent definition.

Can anyone here shed some light on the issue? Maybe something a little bit more concrete (like a study)?

[Todd]

No, Arnold used diet to achieve definition, just like anyone else would have to do. Definition has nothing to do with "pump" OR "overload", it has to do with body fat%, and that is obtained through proper diet intake.

As for the "pump" theory, a pump is simply blood engorging into the muscle tissue. This can be achieved by using super light weight for high reps....and working out this way is not the most efficient way to optimally stimulate muscle growth. A pump is a pump, but that does not mean you've initiated further growth. Being able to overload your muscle more does mean you've stimulated more growth. And this is done over time progressively by adding more and more weight to your lifts. You don't get 20" arms from lifting 20 pound dumbbells for high reps to achieve an outstanding pump. You must lift heavier to force your muscles to grow. The End! (even though I know it won't be the end...lol!)

[Climbin'up]

Does the stuff you looked up have any scientific backing or is it more advertising and opinionated concepts? Well any way, as far as i have experienced and learned in biology courses, I'm pre-med for now. The pump is a phase where you muscles are worked hard and the blood vessels to and in your muscles increase in diameter along w/ the fibers being slightly contracted. If anything both are off the pump is a response to working the muscle which benefits your muscle for the next lift by increasing the amount of blood flowing to your muscles and the slight contraction means less distance for the fibers to slide. This is why it is good to have a post work out meal, because you body (especially exercised muscles) will get those nutrients from your increased amount and rate of blood to your muscles. Maybe some one will tell you definitely but any basic biology or anatomy book will say basically what I did. Well as Todd said for basically ever creature on earth increased weight will equal increase in muscle size. sorry for the lecture

[Firehawk]

Careful what you get out of those books, they contradict each other as well. Most Professors write books to impress other professors, remember that.

From MAX OT:

Muscle Pump
The muscle pump you feel when training is a result of blood actually being "trapped" in the muscles being worked. The muscle pump is certainly a good psychological boost during training and accompanies just about all resistance exercise. And as your muscles become larger so will the pump you get while you train. Now while this muscle pump is not really a bad thing, it is not necessarily an indicator of optimum muscle overload. As you progress in your development you will find that achieving a noticeable pump even during your warm-up sets to be much easier and more prominent. More muscle - more "trapped" blood - bigger pump.

Where does it say that MAX OT says it will hinder muscle growth? I havent seen it. Perhaps you can redirect me to that place in the MAX OT pages. It does say Pump is not a sign of muscle growth, but nowhere does it say it hurts muscle growth either. Basically it just says Pump is a side effect of lifting heavy.

Muscle Burn
The burning sensation that certain types of training bring on is believed by most to be a sign of a successful growth promoting workout. Many seek it out and strive to achieve this burning sensation as an indicator to a good workout.
Well let me tell you, that muscle "burn" is not an indicator of an optimum workout. This burn is caused by infusion of lactic acid. Lactic acid is a byproduct of glycogen metabolism in muscle tissue. Lactic acid is not good for muscle growth. In fact, it impairs growth. Where does this burning sensation come from? It comes from lactic acid due to high reps. Not only does high rep training supply insufficient overload for growth it also causes high muscle lactic acid levels that lead to tissue catabolism, oxidative stree and delayed muscle recovery.

Here is where MAX OT says Burn can hinder muscle growth. I think you are reading it backwards Dh003i, or making the wrong assumptions.

[bgodd1]

Great Posts...
dh003i
Everything I've read from MAX OT, which is alot, is backed by scientific studies. There are references to all articles.
Also, I wouldn't use Arnold Schwarzeneggar as a reference unless I was on steroids. Your body reacts differently to training when on the juice.

[dh003i]

Thanks guys, your right, it didn't ever say in the Max OT program that the pump hinders muscle growth. It was rather poorly laid out, though, because they put it in the same section (with the same title) that discussed burn being bad.

[Kyle C]

lol if this is a debate of science neither program has it in their favor.

Kc

[Kyle C]

I just noticed reading back on this thread that Max-OT still believes in lactate the cause of muscle sorness. I guess they are lacking in their biochemsity studies just as bad as they are lacking in their physiology studies.

Kc

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by Kyle C

I just noticed reading back on this thread that Max-OT still believes in lactate the cause of muscle sorness. Oviously they are lacking in their biochemistry study as well as there physiology study as well.

Kc

What is the real answer? Can you give me a study or where you got the info? I would like to read it.

[Kyle C]

Because under anaerobic glycolysis the glucuse is broken down into pyruvic acid, latic acid is then produced to help serve as an extra energy source. Lactic Acid can be produced with or without oxygen. There are also a whole host of different ways lactate is removed from blood and muscle after exercise. The accumlation of lactate has more to do with the hormonal realase. (This came from my notes)

You can look into some reasearch by the British where they actually injected Lactate files into the blood stream and no evidence of sorness was found. You can also look into research on the 3 main energy systems, pay close attention to the intermediate system.

Kc "How is that for some bioenergetics?"

[DaRkAnGel]

Originally Posted by Kyle C

I just noticed reading back on this thread that Max-OT still believes in lactate the cause of muscle sorness. I guess they are lacking in their biochemsity studies just as bad as they are lacking in their physiology studies.

Kc

I noticed this too. Wasn't the idea that lactic acid causes DOMS ruled out like a while ago?

Good info towards the latter of the post kyle. :

[Kyle C]

Yeah.. MANY years ago.

Kc

[abarlament]

People can grow off pump or low rep workouts, it depends on their genetics I believe. If you are able to quickly refil glycogen stores and can start rebuilding muscle quickly (high testosterone promotes this I think), you would probably benefit from a pump workout. This would increase your sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

Training with a low rep workout would be increasing myofibrillar hypertrophy, increasing the actual muscle fibers size by introducing them to high stress, which sends the signal to them to grow.

I think to get best results, do both kinds of workouts.

[dh003i]

abarlament, thanks for the reference on hypertrophy. Finally, some actual scientific information! (I was a BS in Molecular Biology, and took Biochem, but muscular growth was never covered; we had to go through the fifteen-zillion cycles: ureaic acid cycle, glycolysis cycle, TCA cycle, krebs cycle, and on and on and on).

This Google search for sacroplasmic myofibrillar hypertrophy produced some useful results, including this article from Bodybuilding.com. It seems like low-rep high-weight workouts cause increases in the number of myosin and actin filaments inside the cells, which are responsible for the muscle's contraction (stronger contraction means greater ability to lift heavy things). Whereas high-rep low-weight workouts cause an increase in the number of ATP-producing mitochondria in cells (mitochondria are the energy-producing unit of cells); this causes cells to become larger in size, increases the fluid in them, results in more intercellular fluid, and increases endurance. Thus, it seems important to balance these two kinds of workouts against one-another, perhaps splitting the sets between them. If you don't do enough low-rep workouts, you will not be stimulating more mitochondria production, thus you won't have more ATP production, and that will prevent your muscles from synthesizing new protein.

[DaRkAnGel]

Correct me if i am wrong, but there can also be a case in which the cell grows so fast (i believe from mostly myofibril hypertrophy using excessive volume) that the mitochandria can't keep up in the growth of the cell and thus you can have a muscle degeneration effect, so definetely encorporating all rep ranges would only have a positive effect.