training methods

[rangers97]

i know it's been discussed to death before, but i never really read anything to really convince me one way or another....which is more beneficial to your overall conditioning: max-ot style lifting, or twice a week per bodypart not to failure???

by beneficial to conditioning, let me try to explain...think of functional, real world situations where working out is beneficial to you. In max-ot, you lift a VERY heavy weight sometimes only 4 times for one set, but lets say 6 times for 3 sets as an example. now it is so heavy that you really strain and it's hard to control the form at the end, and ultimately you wind up cheating a little bit (show me someone who does max-ot with STRICT form on every rep and I will be shocked). so you do your 6-9 sets of 4-6 reps and you're done. ok next week you go in and do 1 more reps or 5 more pounds and you do it....so yes, your "strength" has increased in the lift, but has it really gone up in real life situations?? here comes the point.....i am using max-ot right now and yes my lifts have gone up, but for some reason I feel like I am not functionally stronger. I dont feel like I can lift things in life any easier that before i started this training and in fact sometimes I feel weaker, yet in the gym, my lifts are going up.

Can this low volume approach be good in the gym for these specific exercises, but not in reality? What good is killing myself in the gym if I don;t feel any stronger in my daily activities? Now, if you go to working out each bodypart twice a week with a lower weight, you are inevitable going to be doing more reps and sets per exercise. Now based on this logic, will this enable you to be more functional in the real world since in life, how often do you need to hold a 115 pound barball in the curl position?? i know you lift big to get big, but is it all relative? if i can curl a 60 pound dumbbell 4 times or a 50 pound dumbbell 8-10 times, does it make sense to think that doing the 50 that many times is more productive for your everyday life? by doing the more reps you introduce a bit of an indurance to your muscles that I seem to just not be getting by stopping at 4-6 reps.

I'm not saying to bench 100 pounds 100 times. I think it makes sense to use a weight you can do perhaps 8-9 reps and do multiple sets, conditioning your muscles for every day use. I guess if you plan on doing nothing all day exept working out, then max-ot works, but what if you plan on using your body during the day, carrying things, lifting things, wouldn't it make sense that working your muscles more without killing yourself will produce better overall real world results??

just my 2 cents, this was meant for discussion, i value everyone's opinion on this, please no negative remarks...
thanks,
sf

[jukka]

Damn good question dude! :
I've thought about it myself, at some point.

See, I lift the HIT style (don't even know what max OT means)
but I between 6 to 15 reps per set, depending on just whether I'm
doing higher reps with smaller weights or lower reps with bigger weights.

but I do take the sets to the point where I cannot complete another rep,
and do very few sets.

and this style of training is the only one that has really worked for me,
in terms of increasing strength and size.

but, I must admit, it does next to nothing to increase your
muscle endurance.

I guess it's not supposed to, the idea is that it hits the muscles very hard for a very short period of time, and then you take up to 3 days off
to allow for recovery, both systemic and muscle recovery.
This for those who worry about HIT not allowing enough time for CNS recovery. HIT recognizes the need for systemic recovery better than any other system and thereby the increased intensity leads also to greatly reduces volume and more recovery time.

But yeah, cannot really say that it helps endurance one bit.

But then, I would really like to know how you are supposed to train,
if you don't train HIT style, but only use submaximal sets.
I mean, I'm not kidding or mocking,
I would really like to know, because I have no idea how to do it.

- how do you decide when to terminate the sets,

- how can you tell when you've done the required amount of work to stimulate the muscles to grow, when you exert your muscles to certain point...and then stop, though you still have a few reps in you to do.

- how do you decide how many sets to do, when your sets don't push you that hard, and you always have strength in you to do a few more reps?

- or do you stop doing any more sets when you've failed to get the
desired amount of reps, despite trying your best...so you trained to failure with that last set, attempting to get the set amount of reps.

With HIT, this is very simple, do the 2-3 very hard sets per musclegroup,
and after that your muscles are so tired you can only do half-assed sets,
which are pointless, so you're done for the day and can leave the gym.

Then let your muscles recover and grow. And that comes kind of naturally,
when really busting your balls, you cannot go to the gym that often.

Despite the fact that HIT has so far been the only method
that has worked for me, I'd be happy to try something else,
if I can find logical guidelines on how to go about multiple-set training.

BTW; to me, HIT is also multiple set training,
I do more than one set per muscle group, but only one hard set
per execise.

[Todd]

Guess it all depends on what you are referring to as "real world" situations that you are looking to benefit from...what are these activities that you speak of that you are not feeling more strength in?

I can't really say one way or another for sure, but it seems that when my strength in the gym has gone up, I know I could definitely feel it in such situations where I was moving furniture or other heavy objects. I know it's a hard thing to monitor or compare, but I believe that no matter the training style you are using, if you gain substantial strength in lifts (especially compound lifts -- bench, deads, squats, etc) you should be able to apply that strength and the benefits of that strength to other everyday life situations outside the gym.

But hey, that is just my 2 CENTS!

[rangers97]

ok here's an example....say you are holding a carryon luggage bag that weighs, oh I dunno, 40 pounds. Now, after working out strength training, max-ot style, it gets easier to pick the bag up. Now say you are at the airport terminal and have to walk quite a distance to get from your car to the plane. Tell me how many times you would need to switch hands because one gets tired. Or any other example where you are holding something with one hand, how many times do you switch cause one arm is tired. Now we know 40 pounds isn't much and all, but I guess what I am trying to say is, if you trained with more reps in a set and more often, will you be able to carry that bag longer with one arm?

Or to put it in a more silly example. I can curl a 60 pound db max-ot style for maybe 3-4 reps. Can I put that dumbbell in the curl position and walk across the gym with my arm flexed? Probably would get 2 feet and then be tired, yet i can curl it explosively a few times. Give me a 50 pound dumbbell, put it in the curl position, I can probably walk around the gym at least once before getting tired.

I guess the max-ot training helps overall strength, but explosive strength more than functional strength I think. Maybe if I got into a fight I would be able to push down a 270 pound man since that is what i bench max-ot style, but maybe if i trained with less weight, say 225 for 8-10 reps more than once a week, I can push down a 225 pound man and stay on top of him and hold him down.....let me know if this makes sense!! Logically it does to me, whether or not physiologically it is true i have no idea.....

[.V.]

Hi,

Hope you don't mind my amature, not very knowledgeable input, but here goes.
It seems to make sense that if you get bigger and stronger in the gym, whatever way you choose to get there, you will be bigger and stronger in the rest of your life. I was doing a 3 set x 10 repetition workout for 6 months and not really going up in weight. Then people on this site encouraged me to give 4 sets x 6 repetitions a try. I got stronger. Not even close to as strong as some of you, but stronger than I was. I looked and felt better. I was doing a lot of cardio to work on endurance. It was going good until my MS caused problems and I tried to lift anyway, ended up hurt and not lifting for a couple of weeks. Now I am back where I started, but I will do the same thing again, get stronger again. Anyway, on to my point: If you get bigger and stronger and build endurance in the gym - it will help in the real world. For example, Just a few days ago, we had a patient down off of a hill, a very steep, long hill, had to carry them up the hill on a heavy stretcher. If this would have happened 6 months ago in this particular location, I would not have been able to get it done without calling in a lot of help. But, Thanks to Getting stronger AND building endurance, it was pretty easy, in spite of losing a lot of my progress in the last couple of weeks. So, whatever your method, HIT, MAX OT, I'm not entirely sure what is involved in those, Or just lifting until you can't lift anymore, waiting a few hours and running until you cant run anymore (what I do), Just do it. Sorry if this sounds rambling, but that is my opinion. I hope I'm not wrong.

[Tuna Fish]

The solution is to go with a 30# carry-on bag.

Seriously, though, the gym is a far cry from the real world.

How often do you lie down, have a heavy object on your chest, and lift it repeatedly as you would in a bench press? I'll say it- probably never. Especially the DB version!!

I can't even think of a "real-life situation" (non-sporting situation) where you'd duplicate a squat- weight on the shoulders, standing up and sitting down repeatedly......

I've decided it's probably best not to go to the gym anymore.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Tuna Fish

The solution is to go with a 30# carry-on bag.

Or do like I do, get luggage with wheels! Why lift 30 or 40 pounds when ya don't have to...I save my energy for the gym ..and only the gym!

Seriously, though, the gym is a far cry from the real world.

Yes, it is...that is definitely true.

[Firehawk]

Well, as far as my experiences go...

I have noticed that cardiowise, things i did last year that gave me all kinds of trouble like moving dirt, bricks, even cutting grass, those things barely even phase me now that my cardiovascular system is much more in shape than from one year ago.

As far as the weights go, no, you will never curl something in a real life situation. lol. I will say, that getting off the couch is much easier to me now than before i started ever doing squats! There's a real life situation for ya. Or how about moving boulders? My mom had me move a bunch of 150 lb boulders into her yard as a landscaping task, and at the time, i had so much trouble lifting or even rolling those boulders it was unbelievable. Just the other day she asked me to move one of them back into position. I picked it up like it was nothin. lol

[Cort]

Deadlifts help a lot for "functional" strength. Especially the furniture moving function, or any other heavy object you might need to move :

[Firehawk]

Deadlifts have really helped me rip bushes up out of my yard thats for sure. I dig them out to a point, then use my legs and back, and bodyweight to pull themout all the way :

[Tuna Fish]

While real life and the gym are completely different, there is definite carry-over.

Todd- I got wheels on my bags, too... way better!

[cursor]

No wheels for my bags (and I run with mine in the airport!) : Don't "save" anything for the gym — kick butt all the time.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by cursor

No wheels for my bags (and I run with mine in the airport!) : Don't "save" anything for the gym — kick butt all the time.

If you kick butt all the time, how do you expect to perform optimally in the gym? He he! Ya gotta leave something in the "tank" or you'll be runnin on "empty"!

[cursor]

There's plenty of time to kick back and rest. When I'm on the move ... I'm on the move. I workout to live, I don't live to workout.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by cursor

There's plenty of time to kick back and rest. When I'm on the move ... I'm on the move. I workout to live, I don't live to workout.

Yah, I guess I figure hey, I lift sh!t in the gym 5 days a week as it is, why lift more when I don't have to.... those little wheels on my suitcase are great! And lifting heavy bags is the last thing I want to have to deal with when heading out on vacation...lifting the occasional drink on the other hand, sounds much better.

You are right tho, one should workout to live and not the other way around, I agree 100%.