Valuable Lesson Learned

[sooner_ed]

I learned a valuable lesson in working legs hard on a Wednesday night, then trying to run Thursday night.

This has led to my having to come up with a different workout schedule and I need just a little advice. I know it helps to work certain body parts together but I never know which ones.

So let me post what I have come up with and I would appreciate some input on how to tweak it.

Monday Morning: (at home)
1. Bench Press
2. Decline Dumbbell Fly
3. Lateral Raise
4. Bent-Over Lateral Raise
5. Upright Row

Monday Night: (at the gym)
1. Machine Shrug
2. Lat Pulldown
3. Close-Grip Lat Pulldown
4. Back Lat Pulldown

Tuesday Morning: (at home)
1. Barbell Curl
2. Dumbbell Curl
3. Hammer Curl
4. Wrist Curl

Repeat Monday morning on Wednesday and Friday mornings.
Repeat Tuesday morning on Thursday and Saturday mornings.
Do not repeat Monday night.

Tuesday and Thursday nights are dedicated to running.
Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday nights are rest nights.
Sunday is a rest day.

Given that information, does it appear I'm on the right track or should we tweak this thing a little?

Goal: Build mass while marathon training.

Thanks for the help.

[Lady C]

When do you weight train your legs? I think you are working the same muscles too often, IMO.

[sooner_ed]

I'm going to let my running be my weight training for my legs. I am finding that weight training my legs hinders my running.

And I could be working the same muscles too often, which is the purpose of this post.

I'm hoping (and no offense) that people will offer potential solutions instead of just stating the problem.

One solution could be the currenet Monday and Tuesday morning routines repeated Thursday and Friday mornings and dedicate Wednesday morning to abs. Then Saturday could be dedicated to running with no lifting.

What do you think?

[F_Mac]

Ed, I agree with Lady C, I also think you are doing too much volume overall. Not training legs is a big mistake IMO as the overall hormonal response from exercises such as deads and squats is beneficial for the growth of the entire body.

Running for cardio is not optimal, but I know you realize this. However, I think you should still be able to incorporate some leg work and be able to run pain free. If you keep your running on tuesday and thursday, and train legs on saturday morning, that really gives your legs 1.5 days to recover from your last run, and 3.5 days to recover from your workout on saturday before you run again.

This is something like what I would do in your case, and I would only train once a day, that should be all you need at your stage.

Mon: Chest/delts/tri's

Tues: running

Wed: Back, Bi's

Thurs: running

Fri: Accessory work (abs, calves, forearms)

Sat: Legs

It seems fairly low volume but I bet it works, assuming your diet is sufficient.

[Khaine]

Originally Posted by sooner_ed

Goal: Build mass while marathon training.

I'm just going to point out a problem... It's the above sentence... To hell with the fact that you have a 'curl day', marathon running does not facilitate mass gain, so whatever 'solution' is provided is unlikely to aid your goal much...

With that out of the way... If you don't want to do leg work, nobody can force you... The training frequency is not a problem, assuming the volume is properly managed... I'm more sceptical about your exercise selection... So for a 'solution', I suggest more compound work... Ditch the lateral raises, upright rows, shrugs and flies, insert overhead pressing, dips, BORs, chins...

Oh, and 'curl day' IS ridiculous, if you're going to do 'arms', please insert some tricep work...

[LiftGirl]

Sorry, ed, but I agree with the others. I think you still need to work legs, despite running. I also think you need to do more compound work and less isolation work. Compound work is what builds mass.

[sooner_ed]

First of all, I appreciate all of the responses. And never be sorry about agreeing with others. If I didn't want the feedback, I wouldn't have asked for it. I even appreciate being told curl day IS ridiculous. Those exercises were just what I picked out given that is a home workout and not a gym workout. I didn't mean to make it RIDICULOUS.

Now, with that said, I hear compound work. I've never thought much about compound vs. isolation. What I have at home is a 300 pound olympic barbell set, a regular barbell with weights, and dumbbells. I also have a bench in addition to the weight bench. Are there compound exercises I can do at home or would I be better off doing them at the gym?

Although running for cardio is not optimal, please remember I am a runner who lifts weights, not a bodybuilder who runs, if that makes sense.

I understand that it is against conventional wisdom to build mass while marathon training, but I believe it can be done. I may not be able to do it, but I sure as heck want to try. I may fail, but I would rather try and fail than to not try at all.

Overhead pressing, dips, BORs (I hate to say I don't know what BORs are), chins...man, I used to be decent at chins, now I suck. I tried some the other night. I have added that to my gym work.

I appreciate the input guys. I will work on this.

[etothepii]

BOR's = Bent Over Rows. Search pendlay rows on youtube to see execution.

I suggest some dead lifts. Why? 'cause I like them! I don't know squat about running, or the goal of building mass while running. (I have read that running is the "shrinking man's exercise," though).

Anyway, dead lifts are as compound an exercise as you can get, especially if you incorporate a shrug at the top of the motion. The olympic weight set is all you need. Low weight, high rep will exercise every muscle in your body (slight exaggeration, I guess), and it will be taxing on your cardiovascular system too, which may yeild some benefits for running. (Just a guess). Add weight as you learn technique. Keep adding weight and possible do more sets at lower reps, etc. More weight, lower reps, higher calories should build mass. It will really condition your back, core, arm, traps, and of course, thighs, glutes, and hams.

When to do it? Heck, I don't know. If it's a new exercise to you, it will give you a big case of the DOMS, which will hamer running for a few days. Maybe increase the antioxidants in your diet if you decide to give deads a try.

OK, there's my two cents. Good luck!

[tim_mcf]

And squats. Since you don't have a squat rack (I assume), you probably can't do heavy back squats, but overhead squats and front squats are a good choice. Cleans and snatches.

[Khaine]

Originally Posted by sooner_ed

I even appreciate being told curl day IS ridiculous. Those exercises were just what I picked out given that is a home workout and not a gym workout. I didn't mean to make it RIDICULOUS.

ahah right... Yea, it just looked archetypically fratboyish to do all curls for a full day...

Originally Posted by sooner_ed

Now, with that said, I hear compound work. I've never thought much about compound vs. isolation. What I have at home is a 300 pound olympic barbell set, a regular barbell with weights, and dumbbells. I also have a bench in addition to the weight bench. Are there compound exercises I can do at home or would I be better off doing them at the gym?

Right... The BB set with weights should really take care of most of your needs, but if you have a gym membership and it's not overly complicating to get there, it will at least provide you with some additional options... However, with the equipment you have now, I see the following exercises:

Bench Press (+Incline/Decline), BOR, DB Row, Military Press, Push Press, O-Lift variations and the Deadlift (I really don't consider this a lower body exercise, as while it fries my Hammies, it does more for my entire back complex than for my legs)... If you have a place to perform Dips and Chins, you're pretty much golden... Add curls and extensions and flies and what have you as auxiliary exercises AFTER the above...

Originally Posted by sooner_ed

Although running for cardio is not optimal, please remember I am a runner who lifts weights, not a bodybuilder who runs, if that makes sense.

I understand that it is against conventional wisdom to build mass while marathon training, but I believe it can be done. I may not be able to do it, but I sure as heck want to try. I may fail, but I would rather try and fail than to not try at all.

That's cool... Nothing wong with trying, but (and I won't bring it up again in this thread) cardio, particularly the marathon kind, increases base cortisol level and is thus about as catabolic as it gets (not to mention the adipose tissue storage thing; OH and heart inflammation)... Marathon running will ONLY make you better at marathon running and more likely than not, be detrimental to other goals you may have...

Another thing I will bring up for the last time... Working legs will not negatively affect your marathon running... Marathon is not an anaerobic activity and DOMS or muscle tissue damage won't be impacted much by it... Of course, for purposes of comfort, it would make sense to place leg day and running apart as much as possible, but it's not necesary for every fiber in your body to be completely back to baseline before it has to work again... An occassional deloading week would make more sense than no leg work... If for no other reason, Squats and Deads will give you a slight (very slight) GH burst, which could balance out your cortisol levels... Oh, and if you do decide to do legs, I suggest getting a rack or hitting the gym so you don't hurt yourself trying to get the bar up... You shouldn't be able to clean what you Front Squat anyway...

As for a basic plan, you could do

Day1 - Horizontal Push/Pull
(Day2 - Legs)
Day3 - Vertical Push/Pull

And just repeat each day as often as volume allows, inserting rest days where necessary and running where appropriate...

I do ramble on, don't I...

EDIT: OHH!! And full Deadlifts WITH a power shrug for high reps is a sure-fire way to murder your CNS... If you perform power shrugs, do them from the hang, not the floor...

[etothepii]

EDIT: OHH!! And full Deadlifts WITH a power shrug for high reps is a sure-fire way to murder your CNS... If you perform power shrugs, do them from the hang, not the floor...

They don't have to be power shrugs. Just one fluid motion -- shrug at the top of the DL.

[sooner_ed]

I emailed Frank Zane earlier today to ask him if he thought my goal was achievable. The man is very kind. He told me only I had the answer to that question. He told me to believe in myself and to work at it. You can interpret that any way you choose but I know how I have interpreted it and I'm going to believe in myself and work at it.

[.V.]

Originally Posted by sooner_ed

I have interpreted it and I'm going to believe in myself and work at it.

:



Edit: About the deadlift/power shrug thing, if you decide to do them the answer is easy. Just do a regular deadlift (conventional, not SL) and when you get to the top of the movement pause for a second then do a shrug. Put the bar down, repeat as needed.

Best of luck on your goal.

[maverick]

I don't even bother with the shrug and my traps get fried on deadlifts. Just pull your shoulders back a bit when you lock out your deadlift. Not too far though, you don't want to place too much stress on them in that position.

[LiftGirl]

Originally Posted by sooner_ed

I emailed Frank Zane earlier today to ask him if he thought my goal was achievable. The man is very kind. He told me only I had the answer to that question. He told me to believe in myself and to work at it. You can interpret that any way you choose but I know how I have interpreted it and I'm going to believe in myself and work at it.

I think you can acheive both goals to an extent. Of course, neither will probably be optimal, but that's ok. I think it's better to be more overall fit than to be specialized. I hope that made sense.....