Want to revamp my entire routine

[bics56]

Here is the routine I am using now, where I am doing exercise till failure. I just recently read up on CNS overtraining and am considering on not always going untill failure. My goals are to put on more size while trying to remain as tone as a I can.

Day1 Chest
3 x 6-8 flat
3 x 6-8 incline
3 x 6-8 decline
3 x 10 flies
Keep in mind for bench I try to add 10 lbs every time when I use barbell 1st set I may get 9...but on my last set I usually get 6...also I switch to dumbells from time to time

Day2 Legs/Traps
3 x 8 squats
3 x 8 legpress
3 x 10 leg extensions
3 x 10 leg curls
3 x 12-15 calve raises
3 x 10-12 shrugs

Keep in mind for legs I also try to add weight after ever set...and I will leave out leg presses and switch with DL's now

Day 3 Back/Bi's
3 x 8 lat pulldowns
3 x 8 seated cable rows/or close grip lat pulldowns
3 x 8 dumbell rows
3 x 8-10 e-z curl standing curls or preacher
3 x 8-10 dumbell curls (alternate differt type each time)

add weight after each set

Day4 shoulders/tri's
3 x 8-10 some kind of shoulder press...barbell or dumbell
3 x 10 side raises
3 x 10 front raises
3 x 10 tricep extension (cable)
3 x 10 tricep kickback or reverse grip bench or super close grip bench

add weigh after each set

I based this set up on the logic of trying to avoid not giving a muscle group enough time to heal before hitting them up again...for example when you bench press you are working tri's too.

Other than reading about failure and CNS overload, has going to failure worked for you up to this point?

How many rest days per week are you planning?

Just so you know, I'm into full body workouts, three times per week. This type of split isn't my style of training. Not saying it does not work - just not what I'm into.

[ebon00]

I'm with IronMan, I prefer whole-body training too so this split wouldn't be my choice. A few pointers though:

1) Your back work sucks. You do 12 sets for chest and only 9 for back (on back day)? Rethink that and start doing some serious back exercises. Rule of thumb: your lat work should never be more than your trap/midback work. And both of those combined should be at least double your chest work, preferably more. (And why are shrugs on leg day?)

2) Overlap. You mention that you set this split up for bodypart recovery but you give your delts a thrashing 3 days out of 4. Again, 9 sets for delts while your traps get 6 total (with the shrugs on leg day). The shoulder is the most fragile joint we have because it's the most compilcated and works over the largest range of motion. What you're doing right now is setting up muscle imbalance that will cause problems.

3) Where's the posterior chain work? Leg curls for hamstrings? That's it? You kill your quads with 9 sets and then throw in a token 3 sets of hamstrings. Basically you're doing the number one mistake in training, you're only training the front of your body. (Out of sight, out of mind, right)

All of these points come to one thing: your routine is set up to create posture problems. You give your front delts too much work while giving your back almost nothing of import. Your quads get the work while your hamstrings get none that really matters (covering only one of that muscle groups functions). This kind of routine will probably leave you as a hunchback with shoulder problems and with a forward tilt to your pelvis. I have poor posture since I was a kid and I've made all the stupid mistakes you're doing now so at least make the effort to read up on this subject (posture and core work) because this is the kind of stuff that will come back to haunt you later on.

[bics56]

Thanks for the advise guys...this is my old routine I have used for quite a while with little tweaking here and there. I want to restructure the entire thing. I typically get to lift 4-5 days/week. So far my old routine worked fairly well I made strength gains fairly consistant but I know it has it flaws and needs revamped. So if you guys can give me a good layout with exercises, rep ranges, and anything else I should know I would appreciate it very much. Total body isnt what I want to do, I would like to still like to split things up. Thanks in advance

ebon gave some great advice:

Originally Posted by ebon00

Rule of thumb: your lat work should never be more than your trap/midback work. And both of those combined should be at least double your chest work, preferably more.

Add some deadlifts and change one cable work for some type of row. Or add more sets to your dumbbell rows. Add some deadlifts too!

Originally Posted by ebon00

(And why are shrugs on leg day?)

I think he is considering this a shoulder exercise. It could also be considered an upper back exercise.

Originally Posted by ebon00

your delts [get] a thrashing 3 days out of 4. Again, 9 sets for delts while your traps get 6 total (with the shrugs on leg day). The shoulder is the most fragile joint we have because it's the most compilcated and works over the largest range of motion. What you're doing right now is setting up muscle imbalance that will cause problems.

Front delts get worked with the chest, rear delts get worked with the back. It is very difficult to separate the two.

Originally Posted by ebon00

Leg curls for hamstrings? That's it? You kill your quads with 9 sets and then throw in a token 3 sets of hamstrings. Basically you're doing the number one mistake in training, you're only training the front of your body.

Add some SLDL or glute ham raises.

Heavy, compound movments will do your body better than isolation movements. You might want to look into a push, pull, legs, calves & forearms 4 day split rather than isolating muscle groups.

[ebon00]

Originally Posted by IronMan

You might want to look into a push, pull, legs, calves & forearms 4 day split rather than isolating muscle groups.

If anyone desperately wants a split routine, as I know a lot of people do, this is a very good way to do it. For one thing it eliminates some of the overlap/overwork for the delts if one does push - legs - pull - calves/forearms, and it also forces the trainee to limit his sets/exercises a bit. Listen to IronMan and go with the compunds: squats, front squats, deadlifts, stiff deadlifts, good mornings, bent over rows, shrugs, chins, dips, incline press, push press (optional really), etc.

[bics56]

Ok I am having a hard time picturing what my routine should look like on paper. Like how I posted my old/current routine. Can you guys post me up a routine in that format...sorry if I am being a PITA

Day 1 Push: Exercises that hit your chest, shoulders, & triceps. Such as bench press, military press, dips.

Day 2 Pull: It would be geared towards back & biceps. Exercises would include rows, chins, deadlifts, shrugs, curls.

Day 3 Legs: These would include quads, glutes, & hamstrings. Use squats, front squats, stiff legged deadlifts, leg curls.

Day 4: Calves/forearms/abs is self explanatory.

If you are adventurous you could make Day 5 simply for deadlifts. That makes for a very interesting workout.

[bics56]

Ok here is what I may try out...keep in mind everyonce and a while I may sub in and out different exercises to keep it a little fresh

Day1
Flat Bench 3 x 8-20
Incline Bench 3 x 8-10
Military Presses 3 x 8-10
Tricep extensions/reverse grip bench/close grip bench 3 x 8-10 (I would do a different exercise each week)
Day1 total sets :12

Day2 Legs
Squats 3 x 8-10
DL's 3 x 6-8
Leg curls 3 x 8-10
Calve raises 3 x 10

Day3
Lat pulldowns 3 x 8-10
bent over rows 3 x 8-10 (I would alternate dumbells and barbell each week)
Some type of curl 3 x 8-10
Shrugs 3 x 10-12
Day 3 total sets : 12

If this is too much maybe I can add a Day4...but I usually lift 4-5 times/week

Give it a try and see how it works. Good luck and keep us informed of your progress!

[bics56]

Here is another routine I came up with...which one looks better?

Day1: Chest/Back
Incline BP 3 x 8-10
Bentover Rows 3 x 8-10
Flat BP 3 x 8-10
Lat Pulldown 3 x 8-10

Day2: Legs/"Big exercises"
DL's 3 x 8-10
Squats 3 x 8-10
Cleans 2 x 6-8
Leg Curls 2 x 6-8
Calves raises 2 x 10-12

Day3: Bi's/Tri's
Standing or preacher EZ curl bar 3 x 8-10
Close grip or reverse grip BP 3 x 8-10
DB Curls (hammer,incline or reg) 3 x 8-10
Tricep extensions 3 x 8-10

Day4: Shoulders/Traps
Military Presses 3 x 8-10
side/front raises 3 x 8-10
Shrugs 4 x 12

[Lady C]

I like the previous one or the one Ironman suggested. Try them both and pick what suits you best.

[Jay H]

Just curious about a few things...

Originally Posted by ebon00

1) Your back work sucks. You do 12 sets for chest and only 9 for back (on back day)? Rethink that and start doing some serious back exercises. Rule of thumb: your lat work should never be more than your trap/midback work. And both of those combined should be at least double your chest work, preferably more. (And why are shrugs on leg day?)

Based on what goal? From what research did this formula / "rule of thumb" originate?

Originally Posted by ebon00

All of these points come to one thing: your routine is set up to create posture problems. You give your front delts too much work while giving your back almost nothing of import. Your quads get the work while your hamstrings get none that really matters (covering only one of that muscle groups functions). This kind of routine will probably leave you as a hunchback with shoulder problems and with a forward tilt to your pelvis.

Hunchbackism has nothing to do with "muscle imbalance". It is a result of spinal bone density loss or congenital deformity. Nor do I know of any research that suggests that "muscle imbalance" will cause a permanent "forward tilt" in the pelvis. Posture problems are caused by improper muscle carriage, not imbalanced muscle development. What makes you believe otherwise?

Originally Posted by ebon00

I have poor posture since I was a kid and I've made all the stupid mistakes you're doing now so at least make the effort to read up on this subject (posture and core work) because this is the kind of stuff that will come back to haunt you later on.

You really think calling another's mistakes "stupid" is warranted? And what material have you been reading up on to make you think that poor posture is a question of muscle development?

[maverick]

Originally Posted by Jay H

And what material have you been reading up on to make you think that poor posture is a question of muscle development?

I prefer experience. I have a lifting partner who is a fairly typical gym rat. He makes excuses not to do legs, not to do deadlifts, brags about his presses, and does way too much direct arm work. Its almost exactly as described, strong front delts and chest, weak lower back and legs. I have tried over and over again to get him to listen to me and get some real compound lifts in to undo this muscle imbalance, but he never listened. A few weeks ago he managed to throw his back out reracking a 30 pound DB. Now it is a constant problem for him. A little too front heavy with no core/leg support perhaps? Maybe once he heals up he'll learn his lesson and at least entertain the idea of strengthen his non-beach muscles, but probably not.

[ebon00]

Lots of questions here so let's go to work.

Originally Posted by Jay H

Based on what goal? From what research did this formula / "rule of thumb" originate?

Based on the relative size of the muscles involved, their function(s) and my experience. You don't have to agree with me, that's OK, but don't make the mistake of thinking that everything about strength/fitness/performance training needs to be backed by peer-reviewed research. My thinking on this is based on the agonist/antagonist relation between the lats and the traps when it comes to the scapulae.

Originally Posted by Jay H

Hunchbackism has nothing to do with "muscle imbalance". It is a result of spinal bone density loss or congenital deformity. Nor do I know of any research that suggests that "muscle imbalance" will cause a permanent "forward tilt" in the pelvis. Posture problems are caused by improper muscle carriage, not imbalanced muscle development. What makes you believe otherwise?

I never said that proper hunchback "syndrome" was a result of muscle imbalance. I was using that term to explain the basic look this type of overwork of the muscles of the frontal plane, while neglecting the posterior chain, can cause. In light of the too literal interpretation you did I suppose putting hunchback within quotation marks would have the been the, more or less, foolproof way. I just though it would be easier to "paint a picture" (as it were) by saying hunchback or vulture neck rather than say that this type of training is likely to produce "excessive kyphosis and internally rotated humeri".

As for your second statement here, I never suggested that the anterior pelvic tilt was a permanent condition, that was your interpretation. (Usually it can be corrected if the trainee is willing to change a few things in his/her routine. Mine is reverting back to a more neutral position as we speak.) Anterior pelvic tilt is easily caused by weak abdominals in conjuntion with exaggerated movement of the lumbar spine and impaired hip flexibility, which are often a direct result of muscle imbalance. The best example I know of this are dancers who almost to a man (actually, woman mostly) have excessive lordosis causing a permanent "duck-like" stance when viewed from the side. (Other than that I tend to enjoy dancer's bodies!) For a fairly good overview of this I recommend Mechanical Low Back Pain by Porterfield and DeRosa. Check your local library.

And frankly I think yours is the coward's way of asking. You challenge my statements, asking for references to support them, by making some very definite statements of your own but then provide no backing references for these. (This "carriage" of which you speak, can I ride it? ) You could at least set a good example.

Originally Posted by Jay H

You really think calling another's mistakes "stupid" is warranted?

Yes I do but in this case I was referring to my own mistakes as stupid, bics56's routine was simply stupid by association if you will. Any problem with me calling my own acts stupid? If I see people doing something that I know hasn't benefitted me in the least then I'll tell them of my experience. Most people don't want a full life story in answer to "how should I change my routine" so I opted for the short version. The short version is that I made stupid mistakes.

If you had performed an act that had injured you, would you allow another person to perform that if you could stop it? Wouldn't you at least try to tell that person what had happened to you so that they could possibly avoid those particular mistakes?

Originally Posted by Jay H

And what material have you been reading up on to make you think that poor posture is a question of muscle development?

Most people would probably get enough by reading the online work of someone like Cressey. That way you'll get around having to dive into all the really technical stuff.

Now, before we hijack this thread into an abyss of name-calling and anatomical discussion most people could care less about, one of the reasons I left this place a long time ago, if you want to continue this I suggest PM's.

bics56: I like the first routine better but I would substitute chins for pulldown (they're a lot harder). I might also alternate a pressing movement and a lateral raise-type move for delts.