What doctor said - interesting -

[lucky luke]

As my girlfriend is worried about the supplements I use, she e-mailed a doctor on the internet (some kind of myfamily.com) without exactly knowing which supplements I use, she wrote:
"my boyfriend does bodybiulding and uses some powders and vitamins. As far as I know no one should be using them without being tested and I believe they are not good for general health. What do you think?"

She also attached my diet and supplement list I provided before. Fyi, The only vitamine I use is Solgar's VM 2000. My diet consists of high quality proteins, tuna, chicken, egg whites and cottage cheese and low GI carbs like oatmeal, wholegrain foods, beans and fiberous vegetables and quality fats like olive oil, flaxseed oil, CLA etc... I never fry what I eat, I never cook oils

anyway here is what doctor said (perfect translation to English)

"These kind of powders and vitaminS cause some serioes problems as they metabolise in the liver. A nutrition high in protein causes some problems too. EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE BODYBUILDING, YOU SHOULD CONSUME PROTEIN AS MUCH AS A NORMAL (NON SPORTIVE) PERSON DOES. Proteins must be % 12-15 of your daily calories. Maybe a little more. In my opinion, your boyfriend's diet also lacks some vitamins and minerals"

First, she (the doctor) calls all aminoacids and antioxidants as vitamins (glutamine, creatine, co enzyme Q-10, L-carnitine). The only vitamin I use is a multivitamine.
Second, Is there any diet that covers everything? My diet is perfect compared to anybody's diet around me (my collagues eat cakes in the morning, kebab in the noon, and fastfood before bed)

What do you think? I need to defend myself against this doctor so I need scientific references about "somebody who does intensive sport (like bodybuilding) should consume more portein than an average person.

Need your help, thank you...

[pseudonym]

very interesting post lucky.

This doctor is, with all due respect, clearly a quack who has little to no idea but I cannot for the life of me find a study or solid evidence as to why.

this thread in particular vegans final post has some good links to some very good (if very heavy) reading (if english is not your first language ... well I apologise ahead of time ). They are not exactly what you're looking for though.

It is a generally held view that active people (in particular) lifters need more protein than inactive people and it is backed up by years of exerience but in terms of studies to prove it I can't find any.

very interesting indeed. As a study in critical thinking and debate we do have to say 'everyone says so' is possibly the worst way to try and prove something.

Anyone got any hard evidence on this ??

And just a side note, I think there are differences in the human body type which mean some people will build just as much muscle with less protein than others (indeed maybe an intake equal to a sedentary persons is sufficient). But to say taking more is dangerous is, I think, mildly retarded (liver failure in rats has never occurred from protein overdose).

[Firehawk]

Dude,

Doctors don't know anything. The average doctor still lives by the BMI and not by body composition. I told my family doctor point blank to her face that "I bet i know more about nutrition and dropping fat than you do". She took offense. I told her that after she told me i should be weighing 160 lbs. LMAO. I have over 200lbs LBM and im supposed to weigh 160 lbs on a 6'3 large frame body? Don't think so!

And then i had this other doctor tell me when i was really really overweight a couple years ago to "just cut what you eat in half". LOL ok so instead o eating a whole cake ill eat half a one, and 2 plates of spaghetti instead of 4. Sorry that doesn't cut it. How about teaching people how to figure out what they are eating and learn to adjust through writing things down and calculating calories.

[arbit]

Originally Posted by pseudonym

This doctor is, with all due respect, clearly a quack who has little to no idea but I cannot for the life of me find a study or solid evidence as to why.


It is a generally held view that active people (in particular) lifters need more protein than inactive people and it is backed up by years of exerience but in terms of studies to prove it I can't find any.

very interesting indeed. As a study in critical thinking and debate we do have to say 'everyone says so' is possibly the worst way to try and prove something.

I woodnt call the doctor a quack.
As far as I know, the general scientific opinion is we dont need to consume much protein, even people who lift. I do not know how the actual requirement was determined.
Around 0.6g/lb is the norm for an active person.
For a 175lb person that comes out to be 105g/day.
Doc say 15% maybe a bit more, take 17% of calories.
Assuming a 2500 cal diet, it works out to 106g/day

As for liver damage, I'm not aware of it, mabee she said kidneys?

Firehawk, she gave *safe* advice. I'm not aware of any studies which indicate large amounts of LBM is not detrimental to health. Its an open question.
To be honest, I feel a 160lb person is going to be healthier than a 220 lb one, I just dont know by how much.

If u'r looking for ammo to attack the doc, there isnt any. Tho she cood totally be wrong(methinks there just havent been studies on people with large LBM)

[threenorns]

the medical profession is like the teaching profession: they want everyone to be a safe average - "normal". teachers don't generally like having to deal with exceptional kids in class, doctors don't generally like having to deal with exceptional patients. the medical course in university is already so crowded, crammed, and hectic that they probably spend as little time as possible on out-of-norm individuals. ppl who are into bodybuilding and powerlifting are comparatively rare and far between, so there's little money to be made from doing fancy scientific studies on the effects of, for example, taking lots of protein.

you don't need to defend yourself against this doctor.

in my opinion, you need to defend yourself against the girlfriend!

[arbit]

Originally Posted by threenorns

so there's little money to be made from doing fancy scientific studies on the effects of, for example, taking lots of protein.

And there lies the problem.

[rbuchman]

If doctor's advise against high protien what would they replace it with? Most people associate high protien with Atkins in which devotees sing praises like "you can eat all the cheese you want"

I would like to see a study on excess lean body mass i.e. how does the health of a 10% b.f. 160 lb 6' person compare to a 10% b.f. 210lb 6' or a 8% b.f. (same total amount of fat) 200lb 6' person?

[pseudonym]

arbit: hhhmmm yeah you could be right mate, quack might have been a bit harsh. I spose I took a little umbridge at the fact a doctor would actively discourage someone from consuming protein based on the assumption it is unhealthy (which, despite my considerable subsequent searches, it seems there is no evidence of one way or the other).

I can see where you're coming from though, better safe then sorry so to speak, but IMO in this case the doc is WELL the other side of safe

don't spose there's any scientifically minded folk out there who would want to run a study on this ? (I'll happily volunteer my 6 foot 140lb c.15 or so%BF frame as a subject). This topic does seem to be a bit of a knowledge vacuum.

[lucky luke]

Originally Posted by threenorns

in my opinion, you need to defend yourself against the girlfriend!

trying for months... before she wrote to the doctor, I told her to say that if I stop exercising, I lose my motivation and break my habits. I eat only 2 or 3 meals a day. For example, I begin the day with buns full of margarine, greasy meat in the noon and delicious Turkish kebabs in the evening. I eat ice cream, nutella, cakes after almost every meal. I love to drink alcohol everynight, I love nightclubs, dancing till the morning. I told her to write these also and ask doctor compare these two kind of living...

but she didn't.... that is why I am angry with her.

[threenorns]

hmmm.... here's some english to add to your vocabulary: "excuse me, honey, but you need to mind your own damned business."

[Cort]

I think she should talk to someone who specializes in diet rather than an average doctor that you go to for a check-up. Somehow I feel a dietician would be telling you some of the same things though from the few I've talked to.

Personally I feel that protein is over-emphasized by primarily the supplement industry, but I still think that an active lifter will probably need more...just not so much more as some companies would like you to believe.

[Lift2Live]

I'd put it to her like this; "Honey, if you are worried about my dietary habits, you need to have both ends of the spectrum. Now that you have heard what a doctor thinks, ask a healthy "informed" pro lifter what they have to say."

She sounds like she's genuinely concerned but she needs more than one reference on the subject. An "internet" doctors theory isn't (in my mind) reputable enough to rely on as the be all and end all on the subject.

[Merrida]

My first response: I'd be PO'd at your lady friend's behavior. That is RUDE.

[hydralisk]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

Dude,

Doctors don't know anything. The average doctor still lives by the BMI and not by body composition. I told my family doctor point blank to her face that "I bet i know more about nutrition and dropping fat than you do". She took offense. I told her that after she told me i should be weighing 160 lbs. LMAO. I have over 200lbs LBM and im supposed to weigh 160 lbs on a 6'3 large frame body? Don't think so!

And then i had this other doctor tell me when i was really really overweight a couple years ago to "just cut what you eat in half". LOL ok so instead o eating a whole cake ill eat half a one, and 2 plates of spaghetti instead of 4. Sorry that doesn't cut it. How about teaching people how to figure out what they are eating and learn to adjust through writing things down and calculating calories.

Well, when I was in med school, the docs I worked with follow the BMI (as they should), but knew to make exceptions for body builders since their mass is obviously muscle rather than fat. Similarly, most doctors know that while elderly people might have normal BMIs, they actually have less lean body mass and more fat, so you have to take this into account when they receive anesthesia or other medications.
I get the feeling a lot of people resent their doctors these days. sheesh. We are not the enemy, people... lawyers are.

[pseudonym]

Originally Posted by hydralisk

sheesh. We are not the enemy, people... lawyers are.

now steady on there ... we're not the enemy either .... ummmmm .... communists are

**looks around worriedly hoping we all still dislike communists**