What's up with lunges?

[.V.]

Originally Posted by Brat

Andy study her form closely in this one: http://www.danijelacrevar.com/Slike/lunges.jpg

yeah, that's some nice form.

I think she was doing a lunge too. I'll look again to make sure.

Seriously, thank you all for the info. I'm just doing body weight and watching the form very closely. Today was much better - 3 sets of 10 for each side and didn't all a single time. I did almost fall while doing the right leg - that's where the SI problem is. Interesting how the one teeny tiny joint that is the vital link between the upper and lower body gets fouled up just ruines everything.

About the plates under the heels, that's a thought. The PT told me I needed to get some real lifting shoes that are designed for squats - they are a bit higher in the heels and give more solid support for squatting so that the imbalance between my quads and posterior core will improve along with taking away the need for the SI to compensate thereby getting a sublaxation. He said good flat bottomed shoes or barefoot with heels on a plate may help too. 35's are the right thickness, but I don't have anything but 5's, 10's, 25's, and 45's...new plates would be cheaper than a good pair of oly shoes, but probably not better.

Arrrrgggghhhh, the crazy sh*t my body does. Sometimes it's uncontrollable. Today, my chest is having fasiculations - both sides...looks like I'm doing a pec dance but can't quite get them in time with one another.

That's the kind of stuff I have to deal with in the gym. Sometimes it's entertaining, sometimes it has more serious consequences. The most entertaining is when the delts start twitching - I just make sure not to do MPs when that's happening.

So squats and deads throw it out, Lunges too if I try to use weight - but that's improving very slowly. Yet, last night I was able to lift over 1/2 of a 600lb man from an awkward position which required me to use arms and lower back only...two other guys had his legs and got pinned under them...I didn't get hurt and today my back felt great...maybe it was the 3 sessions of bodyweight lunges??

[.V.]

OK, I went back and looked at the form again - and the lunge too. So putting the back knee all the way to the floor isn't a must?

[CF-OC_gal]

Originally Posted by arbit

How does the exrx.net link suport u'r cooment ??

The example does not have the knees go past the toes and people here seem to trust their videos.

Originally Posted by arbit

What I'm saying is for squats, but I think it should apply to lunges too.

Squats and lunges are totally different moves, so I would be careful about lumping them together for comparisons.

I can't squat and keep my knees behind my toes. If I try I tend to lose my balance and fall over.

Lunges, on the other hand, don't have to be done with the knees traveling in front of your toes. You can get a great workout by keeping the vertical plane intact.

[Khaine]

Originally Posted by IronMan

Squats and lunges are totally different moves, so I would be careful about lumping them together for comparisons.

That's what I was thinking... For the knees beyond toes argument, I don't see them having much in common at all, considering movement planes and balance distribution...

On a side note, I perform them like in the exrx.net link, not like the bubble chick, meaning I bend at the knee of my rear leg, rather than keeping it straight... The latter looks like it'd require more explosive strength... Just an observation...

They kick ass regardless... literally...

[CF-OC_gal]

Originally Posted by Khaine

That's what I was thinking... For the knees beyond toes argument, I don't see them having much in common at all, considering movement planes and balance distribution...

On a side note, I perform them like in the exrx.net link, not like the bubble chick, meaning I bend at the knee of my rear leg, rather than keeping it straight... The latter looks like it'd require more explosive strength... Just an observation...

They kick ass regardless... literally...

I've done them both ways. Bent kne behind is easier IMO because it seems to require less balance. I usually do a set with one leg walking forward with each rep then the other leg for a set turning around going back to the start. In that case I have my hind leg not bent, but like the bubble chick's form.

[Merrida]

An idea here,...while not an exercise for building mass, why not try to include some stability exercises in with your training....exercises whose intent is to challenge your balance as a priority, (any "lift" being secondary in importance).

Yep, the BOSU ball everyone here just luuuuuuvs so much -- I guess I'm one of the few, but I use it,...a lot. Both sides. Practicing squats and lunges, or just standing. Single leg squats, toe taps, ankle inversion and eversion, alternate pelvic tilts to "throw you off balance."

If you don't want to do it in a gym, brush your teeth standing on one leg (sounds simple til you try it). Do the dishes, stand on just the other leg. Try some every day activities, but stand on just one leg (do not favor the strong one, divide your time per leg evenly).

If balance is your problem, then work on your balance. Especially now while you're healing (vs. lifting hefty weights).

[.V.]

Hey, that's not a bad idea - something to discuss with the doc and the PT. Actually my balance issues are from lesions on my brain which were demylenated and went untreated for too long - can't be fixed, no beds can replace that stuff yet. The leg issues are mostly just because well, sometimes they collapse same thing - demylentated areas that were unrecognized and untreated for too long - it's a bit unpredictable.

Somthing to think about and next time I visit a real gym instead of the one at my house - I'll see what they've got.

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Hey, that's not a bad idea - something to discuss with the doc and the PT. Actually my balance issues are from lesions on my brain which were demylenated and went untreated for too long - can't be fixed,

I don't know your medical history or what your physical manifestations are due to your situation, but here's a slice of one aspect of what I do: Bearing in mind I don't know your medical situation, past or present, I am not making any assumptions about YOUR condition, nor making any medical rcommendations,...I am just sharing a little of something I do.

I work directly with some of the major primary hospitals here in Boston, and my name is provided as a reference through these hospitals and through the three primary Centers in North America dedicated to the treatment and care of patients with brain tumors (malignant and benign), and various forms of brain cancer and subsequent neurological deficits. (One of the three centers is located in, and treats patients in, the New England area -- and that's my primary referral source in this example).

The point is, I do have experience with working with patients who have had in the past, or currently experience, various forms of brain trauma. The training for them is vastly different than that of a healthy, unaffected person. This gives a new twist (to me at least) as to your balance problems. IMHO, this is not merely an issue of dominant leg strength, or the phenomenon of how each of us have a "smart side" and a "dumb side" of our body when it comes to executing exercises.

In summary, not to make assumptions, but purely based on what you just posted, I would approach your "difficulty in balancing" in numerous different ways, and put working on your CNS up higher on the list. (This also explains why a week off and jumping the gun into your old routine is dangerous). I am working on guess-work here, take it with a grain of salt as you make the choices that are right for you, with your doctor's help and guidance.

[.V.]

You are on the right track. My problem is pretty simple. MS, endocrine problems caused by years of severe obesity - I went from active, fit and healthy, to just doing my work, going home, and eating the wrong foods over time, and more endocrine problems caused by the CNS damage. I'm still not certain how the CNS damage causes endocrine problems, but that's what the docs say.

I'm actually under care of a physician and a PT all the time, they guide me in what I do, I get ideas here and in other places then run them by them - some they encourage, some they discourage.

My feeble misguided attempts at powerlifting come from being told by the my caregivers to train the CNS and that PL is a good way to do that - strength through neural adaptation instead of muscle growth. More muscle that doesn't get enough CNS stimulation doesn't function any better than small muscle. More muscle getting good stimulation from more nerves firing at the same time - better. Sitting on my butt getting fatter every day and needing a wheelchair (where I was 3 years ago) about to lose a career I spent 17 years now building - not acceptable. That's why I push so hard.

However, pushing hard although it is generally good for me most of the time - sometimes says enough and bites me in the butt. That's what's happened with strength training that I didn't have the frame or equal musculature to support - it led to injury. I've been blessed that the injuries weren't "real" or serious and get better very quickly. But they are also the reason I've stepped back and re-evaluated, deciding to go with light weights, high reps, conditioning and muscle building - then from there move back into strength training slowly as I'm actually ready and properly prepared for it.

One thing that I did bad was to ignore them on the triathlon - they told me that much cardio would probably not be the best thing for me. They were right. So I won't be doing another one this september and I was sick this morning watching all the other people this morning doing one and having to not participate. They did say that If I trained slowly and didn't try to push past 10% improvement/week that I can start tri-training again this winter when it is cool and do another one in the spring. Otherwise, I'm to spend this summer and fall working on building strength slowly, a more solid base to support strength gains, and stick to a reasonable amount of cardio as tolerated.

Now I have to come up with a good plan and get their approval - they are still just MD's and PT's, not actual trainers, powerlifters, or bodybuilders - expertise from them in this endeavor is purely academic and theoretical. None of them have ever had a 34 year old get out of the chair, off the cane, lose from 300lbs to 170lbs at 15%body fat then end up at 37 years old being 190lbs at 10% body fat (woohoo - measured and weighed yesterday) who ran a triathlon in may. They aren't sure what to do with me, things are successful, but sometimes things do go wrong.

Now, I start the new plan today and still don't know whether to CDL or SLDL...I'll probably just play it by feel, starting with CDL and if it doesn't work out - I'll switch. I've switched methods often over the last 3 years, reeks of inconsistancy - but I've got to do what works and if something isn't working, I don't have the time to keep doing it.

And Meridda & the others who said about the same thing - you are correct...I did jump back in too soon. That's why I've got a newer, lighter weight plan. It's gonna feel like I'm sandbagging in the gym, lifting way less than I'm used to, but for now - it has to be done.

[Merrida]

I'm with you. A car accident I suffered almost 15 years ago left me with multiple injuries: Broken orbital bone, some facial paralysis on the right, broken/lost teeth, (the windshield came through my face and head and glass imbedded in my face and scalp). The firewall was in my knees. I got multiple spinal injuries which, as they progressed across the years, mean that NOW I have: spondylolisthesis, spinal stenosis (so my whole spinal cord is being encroached, not just a nerve branch), degenerative disk disease, spinal fusion in my lumbar spine (non-surgical, but from the loss of disk material, and of course, that doesn't just dissolve or go away evenly). I was paralyzed in my left leg. I have permanent nerve damage (and got some temporary nerve damage), absent achilles reflex on the left, drop foot (which still acts up), muscle atrophy, chronic sciatica.... and the surgeons I consulted ALL said I would not walk again without surgery, period. In the process of not working, being on medications, depression, I also gained 65 pounds. (Note, I started out at about 5'2" and currently as of my last physical am, this year, just a shy smidge over 5-foot!!)

Anyway, I needed help to do everything,....from "the most embarassing, personal things"....to daily activities. I couldn't lift a sauce pan without pain. You do some serious soul searching at these times.

Cutting to the chase: Fate hooked me up with a personal trainer who wasn't scared of me with all of my problems (after everyone else gave up on me when I refused surgery). Expensive out of pocket not-covered personal training on an almost daily basis for a year is what got me functional to the point where I could do things for myself.

After that (and I am talking years of work starting from the basics of walking by myself,...keep that in mind),......years later, I was bodybuilding.

The surgeons were confounded. I was so moved by what happened I completely changed fields and career paths, and that's why I do what I do. A good portion of my approach is not excluded to academic teachings, but rather subjective life experience and knowing what it's like being "on the other side" of multiple issues.

Beating the odds.....can't always be done, to be sure,.....but,...it CAN be done. BUT,...it must be done differently than what traditional teachings dictate.

From a fellow-injured lifter,.....I understand.

That is one of the primary reasons (after reading more about you) I suggested you focus on your CNS.


Edit-- PS: Time, she passes so fast....I think my accident was more like 18 years ago....I remember posting about my accident right here on DF when I first joined, and it was around 15 years then,....so, give or take. But the point is, ....a long time ago!!

[.V.]

Wow Meridda - you sound like my wife. She went through something similar, different cause but ending with 22 spinal fractures and similar symptoms. She went with the surgery - big mistake.

It sounds like you've done well overcoming these things. If it helps any with the height loss, she's now 4'10" - from 5'0". We look funny together - I'm 6' tall.

[akuma]

Is this the form most people here use?http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...s/BBLunge.html Kinda just makes me wonder why I always get mad doms in my hams after doing them,since the target muscle listed is quads?Right now my leg routine is squats-3set,leg press-2set,sldl-2set,then lunges last-2set,just wondering if my doms are coming from doing them last,especially after sldl?

[.V.]

akuma, I've noticed that if you do a longer step on the lunge it works the hams more. If you take a shorter step, it's more quads. Both should get it pretty hard though.

[akuma]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

akuma, I've noticed that if you do a longer step on the lunge it works the hams more. If you take a shorter step, it's more quads. Both should get it pretty hard though.

Is it just me or does the longer step hit the glutes real good too?