Why 50% of Personal Trainers Suck -PART 1

[standAPART]

Firehawk...

Your right....I have come to my senses...the trainer should be able to put up some serious poundage before he can teach anyone.

So I guess when you can perform DB snatches with rotations or DB burpees for reps, 10 pull-ups, or out-sprint me, then I will belive anything you say.

Of course, I am being sarcastic, but YOU are so hung up on the biggest guy knowing everything in the gym. Its people like you that give trainer's business...people that hung up on "gym science" and fail and then seek out a professional. I agree with you 100%, that a trainer should be able to perform exercises he/she teaches. I never said I teach powerlifters. Strongmen that I have interacted, workout once a week with thier strongman lifts. Powerlifters that I have interacted with CYCLE their workouts (off-season was a bad term).

Lastly, post your pic Firehawk...I wanna see how big and bad you are...I don't wanna hear about all the big guys in YOUR gym, I wanna hear about you.

"A brain surgeon doesn't need to have brain surgery to know how to perform it."

[maverick]

Originally Posted by standAPART

Of course, I am being sarcastic, but YOU are so hung up on the biggest guy knowing everything in the gym. Its people like you that give trainer's business...people that hung up on "gym science" and fail and then seek out a professional.

Firehawk is in a unique position where the biggest guys in the gym ARE the most knowledgable. They are, or were, world-class powerlifters. I think thats why you guys aren't seeing eye to eye.

Originally Posted by standAPART

"A brain surgeon doesn't need to have brain surgery to know how to perform it."

bad analogy, I'm sure he has performed them (or at the very least was taught directly by someone who has) in the past.

I think its very clear that you two have VERY different goals that cannot be symmetrically compared. Let's stop the bickering and discuss the point of whether or not a trainer should be able to physically represent what he teaches. :

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by maverick

Your ability to train, did it come of your own knowledge and research, or did you have some instruction? Not necessarily a certification, as we know most anyone can get one, but more like a mentor or someone that was on a higher level at the time that helped you learn. As a simplistic example, if you can only bench 300 and you want to train someone to bench 400, how do you know you are teaching the right thing unless you were taught by someone else who has? Its seems unless this is the case, your first couple trainees would be nothing more than guinea pigs for what that person would BELIEVE to be the right way to do things. Its easy to do research and think it sounds right, I know I've been guilty of it. I guess I'm wondering how you can truly sift through all the bullsh*t out there without a guide.

Any instruction you get is just about worthless without your own research and experience with it. A persons ability to train someone successfully comes from many things, their knowledge and ability to motivate is what it comes down to though (be it knowledge gained through trial and error, things that were taught/mentored to them, logic and/or common sense).

Certifications and degrees are about as meaningless as the ability to bench press 400lbs... anybody could be blessed with the ability to memorize tests, just as anybody could be blessed with favorable leverages for pressing, and therefor have an advantage that other people don't. IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY CAN TEACH IT. And don't get me started on cheaters... because you can cheat your way to a degree just as you could cheat your way to being successful at bodybuilding.

As for your example, you need to know how to make progress. Individual differences aside, getting one persons bench press to 300 is no different than someone elses getting their bench press to 400. Note the individual differences aside comment I prefaced that statement with. Learning these individual differences, through experience training other people, is also in part what makes for a successful trainer.

[standAPART]

I agree with Dan.

[Firehawk]

Well I'm glad smoeone agrees with me, Todd.

I'm not hung up on anything. I do feel that the BEST trainers out there are the ones that have been there and GONE THROUGH IT, PLUS have the knowledge. I didn't say the biggest guy knows everything either. There's guys i train with who do not retain anything but they are strong as oxes...because others train them (they just happen to be stronger). This is why i agreed with Dan on his points.

I may not be able to outsprint you, but I can outdeadlift you by over 150lbs buddy. I am not claimnig to be some "big bad ass" guy...however, I do have crap detectors for eyes and ears, and as I read your article about piss poor trainers, you seem to fit your own description of them, just by what you've posted here. You start a topic, get everyone into a debate, and then quit posting in it. This has happened in every post you've made here. It's fine to post opinions, but when you come out with something that is just completely wrong, or criticize the knowledge of the board (which you've been around a very short time), then you deserve a verbal backlashing, so EXPECT IT.

It is clear you want exposure to your site, and that everything you've been taught at college must be correct, and therefore everyone else is wrong.


You said you knew "REAL POWERLIFTERS" did you not? You also said something about these "real powerlifters" not trainnig heavy all year because it bangs them up? I mean, this is the biggest load of bologne i've ever read. Yes, they CYCLE their workouts. Do you know what powerlifters even do or how they train? If not, then i suggest you shut up about it because you have no idea.


EDIT: And while i'm thinking of this, CYCLE does not mean go light 12 weeks then go back to heavy another 12 weeks.

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by maverick

Firehawk is in a unique position where the biggest guys in the gym ARE the most knowledgable. They are, or were, world-class powerlifters.

Though what I'm about to say might throw Firehawk into an uproar, I don't believe that statement is true. And this goes back to being strong, and even successful at your chosen sport, not equating to superior knowledge of the training of others.

Something else that a few of us need to realize (Firehawk, Todd and myself) WE are the athletes (I'll save the question of if bodybuilders are athletes for another time ). We are concerned with a specific type of knowledge, a knowledge that only comes from experienced professionals within our field, so of course we're going to dismiss the majority of trainers out there. Plus, we're not the lazy kind of athlete otherwise we wouldn't be on this forum, sharing and learning from each other. We do our own research, so through our own stubborness we're going to try and make it on our own, once again limiting our population of could-be trainers.

But let me ask you this Firehawk, would the West-Side style of training be any less valuable if Louie Simmons was not such an accomplished lifter? It would be less popular, true, but the principles would not be any less valuable.

[F_Mac]

I believe that, like so many other discussions, the answer to this lies somewhere in the middle.

There are some cases (and my gym is a perfect example) where a lot of guys have managed to get big despite themselves. There are some huge guys in my gym that haven't a clue how to eat and train, yet they are big and strong.

There are a couple of guys that are very muscular, ripped, and walk around with 5% BF all year. I have never seen these guys do a squat, deadlift, or heavy compound movement yet, they eat like crap too, but they have the physique that almost every gym rat is striving to achieve.

I however tend to believe that these people are the exception rather than the rule, and as a general rule, I would say that for the most part, big guys, especially those that compete in powerlifting or bodybuilding will have a decent idea on how to get there.

It's all you bastards with crazy genetics and super-human recovery abilities that throw a wrench into discussions like these.

The most important characteristic that a trainer must posess is realizing that everyone will respond differently to training. They need to be able to adjust diet and workouts for their clients to suit the needs of the client, even if it flies in the face of whatever they have read in some textbook.

[Firehawk]

They would not be less valuable sir. And i say that because the principles are backed up with years of experience and many many experiments performed on the very lifters that westside barbell produces.

In fact, and I'm sure you know, most of the things in the westside principles come from european ways of training i believe. So it ain't like anything is new really, except that through experiementation, the Louie is always learning and modifying his beliefs. He's actually changed his opinion on several occasions throughout the years.

No, it does not send me into an uproar Dan, because there are many guys i talk to who do not perform westside like my gym does primarily (with our own twist). A group i can think of right now, very well accomplished powerlifters, do not even do speed work. So, for me to be "homeristic" and say that my gym is by far the most knowledgable would be ignorant. Also, to say that the biggest guys are the most knowledgable in my gym is pretty correct, for the most part. One guy, he's 25, named JJ Thomas, natural athlete and very strong, is very very knowledgable. He studies and reads many many articles...he's a true student of the game. But he's not the strongest in the gym.

[standAPART]

I just love reading Firehawk's posts...

[Firehawk]

Who doesn't?

Congrats, you have 69 plugs...for your website .

WOW and that's my 6000th post! And it was a good one!

[maverick]

Originally Posted by Dan C

As for your example, you need to know how to make progress. Individual differences aside, getting one persons bench press to 300 is no different than someone elses getting their bench press to 400. Note the individual differences aside comment I prefaced that statement with. Learning these individual differences, through experience training other people, is also in part what makes for a successful trainer.

I agree with this, mostly. I guess my issue is tough to explain due to my limited experience. By the rationale you listed, knowing how to making progress is more important than the goal, when training someone else. Kinda like knowing how to pack properly for a journey is more important than having been at the end of it. But what if there's something you didn't know about on that journey? I think once you get to a certain level, is there not more than just the simple factor of making progress? When you get into elite poundages, be it on the bar or on your body, or elite conditioning for athletics, don't you need to have infinitely more knowledge to keep that forward progress going? I guess its the level of trainee that is the variable in this equation for me. By level I guess I mean proximity to their reasonable genetic expectations given hard work and consistency.

Like I said at the beginning, I don't have years and years of experience. These questions are just that, questions. I am by no means trying to make my point over any one elses. Felt I needed to say that since its a little hot in here.

[Blaze]

Originally Posted by maverick

I'm not trying to be an ass at all, but how do you guys know? What you say makes sense in theory, but have you ever trained someone who outpaced you? I'd like to believe that in theory I could make someone bigger and stronger than me, but I never have so I don't know. I'm not insinuating, I'm just curious.

Actually, I have. Not for a fee, but because they were my friends. And they know how much I research fitness, and how much I truly care about it. So they ask me, Hey...can you train me?
Sure, I'll give it a shot, I say to them. Well...some of these guys have been much much much stronger than me. But I still made sure they were overloaded, made sure they trained correctly and made sure they ate right and guess what? they made some awesome gains. Does that mean it was ME or did that? No. but I like to think I helped.

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by maverick

I agree with this, mostly. I guess my issue is tough to explain due to my limited experience. By the rationale you listed, knowing how to making progress is more important than the goal, when training someone else. Kinda like knowing how to pack properly for a journey is more important than having been at the end of it. But what if there's something you didn't know about on that journey? I think once you get to a certain level, is there not more than just the simple factor of making progress? When you get into elite poundages, be it on the bar or on your body, or elite conditioning for athletics, don't you need to have infinitely more knowledge to keep that forward progress going? I guess its the level of trainee that is the variable in this equation for me. By level I guess I mean proximity to their reasonable genetic expectations given hard work and consistency.

Like I said at the beginning, I don't have years and years of experience. These questions are just that, questions. I am by no means trying to make my point over any one elses. Felt I needed to say that since its a little hot in here.

I was thinking the same kind of questions Mav, and would like to hear what Dan thinks about this...

[DBZ Status]

every person on earth is different what works for one person might not work for someone else. As for me if i got a personal trainer he would have to be in really good condition.

Honestly even if you guys like the "science" to back it up. If hes not pushing heavy weights now and hes skinny as a rail chances are he forgot all the **** anyway. I want someone whos big up to date and passionate about weight training.

Don't get me wrong if someone is knowledgable ill discuss and work out with them all day but theres not way in hell im going to pay for it lol

[smm3]

What were we talking about again???