Why 50% of Personal Trainers Suck -PART 1

[DBZ Status]

Originally Posted by maverick

I agree with this, mostly. I guess my issue is tough to explain due to my limited experience. By the rationale you listed, knowing how to making progress is more important than the goal, when training someone else. Kinda like knowing how to pack properly for a journey is more important than having been at the end of it. But what if there's something you didn't know about on that journey? I think once you get to a certain level, is there not more than just the simple factor of making progress? When you get into elite poundages, be it on the bar or on your body, or elite conditioning for athletics, don't you need to have infinitely more knowledge to keep that forward progress going? I guess its the level of trainee that is the variable in this equation for me. By level I guess I mean proximity to their reasonable genetic expectations given hard work and consistency.

Like I said at the beginning, I don't have years and years of experience. These questions are just that, questions. I am by no means trying to make my point over any one elses. Felt I needed to say that since its a little hot in here.

Yeah thats good mav. The way i see it, it's like anything else in life the bigger you get the harder it gets to get even bigger. I think you have to pack your supplies and buy even more during the journey. Also pick up all the experience you learn on the journey as well and apply it. In my opinion in order to be the best you can be you have to master yourself. Know what you personally need to achieve elite status. What person A might need Person B might have.

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by maverick

Like I said at the beginning, I don't have years and years of experience. These questions are just that, questions. I am by no means trying to make my point over any one elses. Felt I needed to say that since its a little hot in here.

I think this is a great discussion. I don't feel like it's getting heated at all, at least I don't feel I'm taking any heat. I'll try to address your comments one-by-one.

I agree with this, mostly. I guess my issue is tough to explain due to my limited experience. By the rationale you listed, knowing how to making progress is more important than the goal, when training someone else. Kinda like knowing how to pack properly for a journey is more important than having been at the end of it. But what if there's something you didn't know about on that journey?

Without the knowledge of how to make progress, there is no reaching the goal. So yes, making progress is more important. Your analogy isn't what I had in mind but going off that I would say that knowing how to reach the destination is more important than just reaching the end of the journey... besides, the journey never ends.

I think once you get to a certain level, is there not more than just the simple factor of making progress? When you get into elite poundages, be it on the bar or on your body, or elite conditioning for athletics, don't you need to have infinitely more knowledge to keep that forward progress going?

I wouldn't say you need infinitely more knowledge but a more specific knowledge. We all know that progress doesn't continue indefinitely, and sooner or later you plateau, but the mechanics of gaining do not change. The SAID principles do not change, and periodization is used at all levels. The length of macro, micro and mini-cycles might change but that again is largely determined by individual differences.

I guess its the level of trainee that is the variable in this equation for me. By level I guess I mean proximity to their reasonable genetic expectations given hard work and consistency.

The level of advancement the trainee is at is less a variable than the individual. So much of training is in the mind, and if you can motivate, inspire and just get your pupil to believe in their training, they are going to make gains.

[maverick]

Originally Posted by Dan C

I think this is a great discussion. I don't feel like it's getting heated at all, at least I don't feel I'm taking any heat. I'll try to address your comments one-by-one.

not from you, it just seemed people were taking things the wrong way earlier in this thread.

Originally Posted by Dan C

besides, the journey never ends.

touche

Originally Posted by Dan C

I wouldn't say you need infinitely more knowledge but a more specific knowledge. We all know that progress doesn't continue indefinitely, and sooner or later you plateau, but the mechanics of gaining do not change. The SAID principles do not change, and periodization is used at all levels. The length of macro, micro and mini-cycles might change but that again is largely determined by individual differences.

The level of advancement the trainee is at is less a variable than the individual. So much of training is in the mind, and if you can motivate, inspire and just get your pupil to believe in their training, they are going to make gains.

I guess I would have more faith in a trainer that has potentially already hit these hurdles than someone who hasn't. It's not that I don't think someone who hasn't isn't capable, but if they have, then I KNOW they are capable. It seems once you hit that level, it becomes increasingly complex to actually not only know what you are doing, but to know the most effecient way to do it.

I think the necessity missing here is not only that the trainer assess the trainee, but also vice versa. If I was picking a trainer, I'd want to the biggest, meanest looking mofo in the place. But before I touched a DB, I would be grilling him up and down. I think people come in too timid to trainers. If you can't come in and tell a trainer what you want and be able to weed through some bull****, you probably don't need anything more than a motivator anyway, know what I mean? If the average person comes in and wants to "get fit", all they need is someone on their ass to get them in there on a consistent basis. Even a half-assed trainer can do that. But when it comes to pushing beyond average, or slightly above average, thats when I think you need to really enlist some knowledge. Hopefully by that time you'll have those BS detectors Firehawk mentioned.

Sorry, kind of a tangent there, but I thought it seemed appropriate to play devil's advocate (no offense MostMuscle ) for the trainers.

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by maverick

I guess I would have more faith in a trainer that has potentially already hit these hurdles than someone who hasn't. It's not that I don't think someone who hasn't isn't capable, but if they have, then I KNOW they are capable. It seems once you hit that level, it becomes increasingly complex to actually not only know what you are doing, but to know the most effecient way to do it.

Just remember that the best athletes are not necessarily the best coaches, and the best coaches were not necessarily the best athletes. Every single athlete in the Olympics has a team of trainers and in most cases not a single one of them was at a higher level than the athlete themselves.

But when it comes to pushing beyond average, or slightly above average, thats when I think you need to really enlist some knowledge. Hopefully by that time you'll have those BS detectors Firehawk mentioned.

Agreed. It's important to keep in mind the difference between personal trainers working with the general public, and athletic trainers/coaches working with higher level athletes. Some of us involved in this thread could be classified as "higher level athletes" and have enough knowledge to train the general public, and I think this is the very reason why some of us are being so hard on personal trainers.

[Todd]

Again, it all comes back to either A) deciding to go with someone who has written knowledge only (as in certifications, degrees, phd's, etc), or B) go with someone who has also been through the rigors of building their own body to an elite level and has accomplished many times over what you're seeking to obtain.

I mean, if you wanted to become something like an excellent figure skater, would you take the advice of a person who has read up on how to ice skate and do the technical tricks, but has never ice-skated themselves, or would you be more inclined to learn from a skater who has skated for many years and has achieved a high level of accomplishments to show for it?

I don't know about you, but I don't think this one would take much thought beyond logical common sense.

Angelo Dundee was a great trainer for Muhammed Ali. I believe he was known for his training prowess, not his prior in-the-ring accomplishments. A trainer needs to be judged by the results he has produced for his clients, not necessarily his results.

I do agree that most people aren't going to get jazzed having a trainer who sports a big puss-gut and a double chin, even if that trainer is very good in all other respects.

[CF-OC_gal]

Originally Posted by pierini

Angelo Dundee was a great trainer for Muhammed Ali. I believe he was known for his training prowess, not his prior in-the-ring accomplishments. A trainer needs to be judged by the results he has produced for his clients, not necessarily his results.

I do agree that most people aren't going to get jazzed having a trainer who sports a big puss-gut and a double chin, even if that trainer is very good in all other respects.

Just look a college athletics coaches and administrators. Some walk the talk but most have left their physically better days behind. That doesn't mean they aren't hellacious coaches though.

[Khaine]

Originally Posted by Todd

Again, it all comes back to either A) deciding to go with someone who has written knowledge only (as in certifications, degrees, phd's, etc), or B) go with someone who has also been through the rigors of building their own body to an elite level and has accomplished many times over what you're seeking to obtain.

Well, you're not really allowing for any nuances are you... How about a) a man who benches 500lbs but benched 200 the first time he touched a barbell or b) a man who benches 450 but started at 75... Choice any tougher...?

I'd say it's obvious there's more to it than just moving the most weight or being the biggest... I KNOW there's cats at my gym that outbench me, that I could teach a thing or five to improve, simply because I've had to study to get where I'm at, and they haven't...

Other than that, I think Dan is on point here... Most professionals at any sport get to a point where they are better than their trainers ever were, but that doesn't mean they should stop listening to them...

[Blaze]

Originally Posted by Khaine

Other than that, I think Dan is on point here... Most professionals at any sport get to a point where they are better than their trainers ever were, but that doesn't mean they should stop listening to them...

So true...so true...:

I really think it all comes to down to that very fact. Right on the money.

[Maxgain]

Just do exactly what I say and you will progress I know everything anyone that goes against me is wrong !

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Khaine

Well, you're not really allowing for any nuances are you... How about a) a man who benches 500lbs but benched 200 the first time he touched a barbell or b) a man who benches 450 but started at 75... Choice any tougher...?

I am not even talking about whether a guy can lift a particular amount of weight or not to say he is or isn't qualified to teach others. I am talking about someone who has been through years of having actual experience....not just in lifting, but nutrition, weight loss, muscle hypertrophy, etc. It takes a lot more than someone who can claim they lift 300 lb bench press to be considered "qualified".

To be even more clear with it, if I were to have to choose between A) a gym rat who benches 450 pounds and B) a competitive bodybuilder who has dieted himself down many times, and constructed an elite (and complete) physique over several years, I would definitely choose "B".

I'd say it's obvious there's more to it than just moving the most weight or being the biggest... I KNOW there's cats at my gym that outbench me, that I could teach a thing or five to improve, simply because I've had to study to get where I'm at, and they haven't...

Exactly, I agree.

Other than that, I think Dan is on point here... Most professionals at any sport get to a point where they are better than their trainers ever were, but that doesn't mean they should stop listening to them...

No, you are right, most professionals do surpass their trainers, of course. But my whole point is, go with the person who has the MOST experience and has been through a great deal of trial and error ...as in SEVERAL years of having built their own physiques to great proportions...despite where they are now with their physiques.

Don't go with someone who only has "textbook" certification or know-how, or who has not already accomplished what you are trying to accomplish.

[Jaster]

Todd you are once again right on here.
Yes I can lift a small Toyota but I know nothing about nutrition.
I know what works for me and the basics to start newbies or help intermedits. Just because a guy is smaller or can't lift as much as me don't mean I can't learn something about lifting from him. That's what is great about this sport!
We can all learn form just about anyone if we have an open mind.
And remember this what works for one may not always work for the masses.
Every lifter is an expermint onto themselves.

[F_Mac]

Originally Posted by Jaster

Every lifter is an expermint onto themselves.

: nicely put.

[DBZ Status]

Originally Posted by Todd

No, you are right, most professionals do surpass their trainers, of course. But my whole point is, go with the person who has the MOST experience and has been through a great deal of trial and error ...as in SEVERAL years of having built their own physiques to great proportions...despite where they are now with their physiques.

Don't go with someone who only has "textbook" certification or know-how, or who has not already accomplished what you are trying to accomplish.

that is exactly what i think and the kind of trainer i wish i would have gotten when i was younger