Yeah, so I need some opinions here

[Merrida]

V, I'm glad you were able to extrapolate something useful out of that novel I wrote above,...

[.V.]

Whoa, now she's switched to big words. Those are big words for such a little girl you know.

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by .V.

Whoa, now she's switched to big words. Those are big words for such a little girl you know.

PPppthttthhhhbbbb!

[TomG]

I've always thought of the Smith machine as bad because the way I say/heard it being used was to get under it.

'Tain't necessarily so. If you put your feet out in front and lean back as you describe, there is nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, I bet it is better than sitting down in a leg press machine, trapped and pushing up. There is nothing wrong with leaning back on your feet and pushing. I do that with a soccer ball on the wall against my back - never equated it with a Smith machine.

Wow, I learned two things today . . . . kinda like my third year in college. Groovy.

To clarify: pushing back on a Smith machine or on a soccer ball is a completely (almost) different exercise than a squat. Maybe it can be renamed a "push-back squat." It hits the quads mainly, not the quads, back, hamstrings, glutes, stabilizers, and everything in between as does the squat. Expecting the push-back squat to equal a squat would be like expecting a curl to equal a pull-up.

[Gooseneck]

I use the smith machine for doing military presses and benchpresses. I also use it for Jaster shrugs sometimes too. For squats however, I think its a bad design.

[Rufiedodg]

Originally Posted by TomG

I've always thought of the Smith machine as bad because the way I say/heard it being used was to get under it.

'Tain't necessarily so. If you put your feet out in front and lean back as you describe, there is nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, I bet it is better than sitting down in a leg press machine, trapped and pushing up. There is nothing wrong with leaning back on your feet and pushing. I do that with a soccer ball on the wall against my back - never equated it with a Smith machine.

Wow, I learned two things today . . . . kinda like my third year in college. Groovy.

To clarify: pushing back on a Smith machine or on a soccer ball is a completely (almost) different exercise than a squat. Maybe it can be renamed a "push-back squat." It hits the quads mainly, not the quads, back, hamstrings, glutes, stabilizers, and everything in between as does the squat. Expecting the push-back squat to equal a squat would be like expecting a curl to equal a pull-up.

If you put your feet forward as you mentioned in the Smith Machine Squat, to prevent your knees from traveling too far forward at the bottom of the movement relative to your feet, you put your lower back at risk. When your feet are well forward, you loose the natural required slight hollow in your back--including at the bottom of the movement--becuase your hips would be forward of their ideal position. Although our knees would be spared of some stress, it will be at the cost of a back injury sooner or later.

If you want to lesson the chance of injury as you age I would stay away from Smith Machine Squats.

The leg press machine is a much better choice. Assuming you use correct technique, the machine enables you to work your thighs and hips hard without your lower back coming into the picture, other than a stabilizer.

The ball squat is probably the safest of them all. The thighs and hips can receive stimulation with much reduced weights relative to the Smith Machine and Leg Press Machine.

If you think about it --even while performing the barbell squat, the orbital path radially ( from side to side ) is restricted. Each leg has to follow close to the same radial ( or side to side ) orbital path as the other, not unlike the barbell curl is with the arms. I cannot perform the barbell curl without experiencing elbow pain due to the restricted orbital path the arms are forced to stay within. I can however preform dumbbell curls without any problems simply because my muscles and tendons are allowed to choose their optimal orbital path. By using bars that are independent of each other ( dumbbells ), each arm is not tied to the same radial path as the other.

DAN

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by Gooseneck

I use the smith machine for doing military presses and benchpresses. I also use it for Jaster shrugs sometimes too. For squats however, I think its a bad design.

What are Jaster shrugs?

... nevermind. Behind the back barbell shrugs, right?

[.V.]

Right. That's what they are.

[TomG]

When your feet are well forward, you loose the natural required slight hollow in your back

I see, because the bar is on the shoulders and the back is unsupported as it is in the rolling ball squat. Thanks. Glad to hear the ball squat is good.

I hurt my ribs and it was the only one I could do the last couple weeks, but now I'm ok for the front squat.

[.V.]

Me again.

Because of my SI joint issues, my feet have moved closer and my squats have gotten deeper. No more parallel or box squats at 1.5-2x shoulder width for me. Of course this means less glute and ham involvement (still gets them pretty good, but not like squatting w.i.d.e)

So anyway now that my form has changed so drastically and I'm going hams to calves I'm squatting 100-130lbs less than I was a year ago.

Since my legs are my weak point, (MS remember?) They are getting a little extra work. I'm doing my usual full body workout with the "real" lifts. Finishing up with some mirror muscles; you know the curls, crushers, crushes, and pullups. Then I hit the leg press. I do feel some low back pressure in the leg press that I don't feel when squatting. Like the spinal erectors are working but my back is trying to round...can't happen because of the design of the seat but still, it's an odd feeling for me.

Is this right? Maybe I should switch to the hack squat machine instead of the leg press?

I'm only using like 350ish on the leg press anyway. I guess though on the hack squat machine I'll be down around 150 like in free weight squats?

Sorry, I don't like machines and don't even want to use them...but they do serve a purpose. One of you machine people guide me here.

[Merrida]

V-- Nothing should create a problem using a leg press machine. Which machine are you using, an incline press? Flat sled? Seated? I'll assume incline unless you express otherwise. Permitting your knees to come in towards your chest as deep as you can will maximize muscle recruitement and duplicate, as much as possible, a squat, -- but the key is to make sure you initiate the thrust as you push off from your heels when you're this deep. There-in tends to lie the area of movement most responsible for either problems or resultant complications or injuries. (Or just plain ole aches in the back or knees, but primarily the back).

If you were to pitch up on your toes first when you execute the push off, then yep, you risk your form. But if you have good kinesthetic awareness then you should be fine.

[.V.]

It's the one where I'm inclined with my feet up. I push with my heels. I just was a little concerned because I feel it in my lower back some while lowering the weight (bringing knees towards me). I can't actually get my knees all the way to my chest though..safety stops in the way.

Since my back is supported and I can't actually round it...it just feels like it is I'll not worry about injury and keep pressing away. Thanks.

[Merrida]

V -- Do you have any reasons to either dislike this press, or feel like it may be causing irration to your back? I know you don't like machines, I get that. I'm surprised you can't get your knees to your chest especially because you're tall. Can you get pretty deep though?

You can still round your back, even though the back of the seat is "preventing" you from visually rounding your back. Can you get someone to place their hand behind your low back to feel any changes in pressure or curvature? Another trick to help is to use a folded or rolled towel behind your back, but not in the lordosis of the lumbar spine, but actually above the L1 level, and more towards T-9 through T-11. Sounds odd but it helps.

Are you getting any more comfy on that leg press Andy? Is it a love-hate relationship that you're feeling? Hey Andy,....maybe it's one of those,....oh what do you call it,....? Oh yeah,...an acquired taste?

[.V.]

It's just the safety stops that keep my knees from reaching my chest I think. But I'm getting the full ROM that the machine is set up for. The low back pressure...I honestly don't know what it's from. It's not painful, I was just afraid because of prior experiences when I felt things in my low back of getting injured. That doesnt seem to be going to happen with this machine.

I don't think I'll acquire a taste for the machine, at least not enough to get me away from at least some kind of squats; but it will hopefully serve a purpose.

Love a machine? Bite me.

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by .V.

Love a machine? Bite me.

Well, if you think that would help. But careful,....I'll draw blood.