Yeah, so I need some opinions here

[.V.]

I actually broke down and bought a membership to a gym yesterday. No, it's not the free one that's close to my home. It's the $135.00 one that's a 15 mile drive from home. But still $135.00 for full membership to the cardio room (full of recumbent bikes, treadmills, step climbers, other bike thingys...), all classes, handball, and the weight machine room that's full of all kinds of modern new fangled looking weight machines isn't bad. Oh yeah and they have two power cages with some oly bars and plates too. And some kind of contraption someone called a smith machine. Some good heavy benches there too.

So I guess I'll be using the cages, bars, and plates a lot...kind of like at home but with heat, lights, and well you know...nice things like electricity which I never bothered to put in my gym.

Yeah, I'm tired of getting hurt from working out in 20 degree weather and peeling the skin off my hands after they freeze to the bar from sweating.

Now for the advice I need:

I have a tendency to get sublaxations of my SI joints and muscle spasms in my back due to my leg weakness. I prefer to squat and they do have some nice cages with safety bars. I'm just now starting back after some time off following an injury where my foot slipped and I pulled a muscle in my back on a water rescue...shortly after I stupidly decided to wrestle someone younger and stronger, cracking a rib and re-injuring that muscle plus the pec muscle... A win is not always a win. All seems healed except the rib but it's doing much better too.

But...I was just wondering what the trainers and very experienced people think. Considering previous injuries should I forgo the squatting over the winter and stick with the leg press, squat in the smith machine, or just hope I can find some spotters and squat for real using the cages?

I really need to lift injury free because I need to undo the damage done by missed workouts, missed motivation, and crappy diet for the last 6 months. All my gains over the previous year are gone and I WANT THEM BACK.

My choices as most probably already know are squat, dead, bench, row, OHP, and cable crunches. Maybe some arm work, maybe not. I will be bulking from now to feb or march...depends on how fat I get...

So, any input on squat -vs- smith -vs- leg press (for my particular situation) will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys and girls. Looking forward to hearing from you.

[Gooseneck]

Congrats on the gym membership bro, I have a feeling you're going to love it. Work around the injury, not through it. Do the leg presses and extensions and what not, leave the squats until the turn of the year. Give yourself the time it needs to fix itself.

[Dan C]

I say unless it bothers you, do both squats and leg presses. Squats are the number one choice for overall body development but if your legs are the weak point some presses should do you good.

You probably already know what I think about the smith machine.

[Merrida]

I would stick to leg presses for a little while to get your leg strength back, but let's not forget how important those glutes are. The thing with squatting either regular or in the smith, is you have axial compression, and that may be, (just temporarily at this juncture) enough to exacerbate what's going on. So I'm all for leg presses right now.

You'll hate this, but if you're determined to squat, you may try it with lighter weight to activate those glutes and leg muscles and not "go balls to the wall" just yet.

I'd have the same philosophy on DL's - while still a bit of axial compression you're not loading from the top and your back muscles can kick in to help (but I'd still sway away from the gusto weight),...but keep the area mobile.

View this like you've been on a hiatus for a while, and getting back you sometimes have to take a few steps backwards so that in a few months you take giant leaps forward.

Just adding my $0.02.

[LiftGirl]

Originally Posted by Merrida

You'll hate this, but if you're determined to squat, you may try it with lighter weight to activate those glutes and leg muscles and not "go balls to the wall" just yet.

First off, I'm not a trainer like these guys. But how about lunges to keep the glutes and leg muscles going while avoiding "loading from the top?"

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by LiftGirl

First off, I'm not a trainer like these guys. But how about lunges to keep the glutes and leg muscles going while avoiding "loading from the top?"

That's a good idea,...or sumo squats where the weight is centered. Stationary lunges with DB's vs. BB might work as well, again with the weight held low, avoiding axial loading. Glute work is important for SI stabilization.

Well I am not a trainer and given that I have limited experience squatting with iron due to my previous 3 years of bodyweight-only training, but I say do front squats, Olympic style, with light weight and working on perfect form (ATG and upper body uprightness with chest expanded and bar racked on your shoulders).

They are serving me well even though the weight I am using is modest.

[.V.]

Thanks for the info guys and girls. I didn't get to check for opinions before going to the gym this morning but this is kind of what I did.

I did my squats but they were very light...felt pretty damn heavy though. Kind of sad to see me in the cage with 125 and a 5'4" girl using the leg press with 300...oh well. I do bodyweight lunges all the time anyway. I'm going to add the leg press on Friday when I go back. I'll count that as part of my real workout and do it before I move on to the the silly "mirror muscles" part that I will either take or leave depending on how I feel at the end of the workout.

The smith machine...I watche some people using it today and the foot position being way out in front like they were doing told me again....I'm not using one and there is simply no way the rest of the body is going to be involved using it.

Thanks for all the input, it tells me I'm on the right track here.

[TomG]

I second Pierini's front squat idea.

I also think you should go lighter weight and up it to twenty rep. Even a light weight, and a fairly comfortable 20 rep set will work your legs plenty.

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by .V.

The smith machine...I watche some people using it today and the foot position being way out in front like they were doing told me again....I'm not using one and there is simply no way the rest of the body is going to be involved using it.

Thanks for all the input, it tells me I'm on the right track here.

I don't think I understood that,...can you explain what you mean (re: the smith & what you saw and interpreted, and all that jazz?) Tx.

[.V.]

Originally Posted by Merrida

I don't think I understood that,...can you explain what you mean (re: the smith & what you saw and interpreted, and all that jazz?) Tx.

I don't know how to use one so I watched others being guided in it's use by a trainer. They had them get under the bar and walk their feet forward so that they were kind of leaning back into the bar instead of standing directly under it.

Then when they went down (and only to parallel) they were actually straight backed and looked as if they were sitting. So now I see how it really limits the range of motion or use of as many muscles as the squat does.

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by .V.

I don't know how to use one so I watched others being guided in it's use by a trainer. They had them get under the bar and walk their feet forward so that they were kind of leaning back into the bar instead of standing directly under it.

Then when they went down (and only to parallel) they were actually straight backed and looked as if they were sitting. So now I see how it really limits the range of motion or use of as many muscles as the squat does.

Ahh, gotchya, okay. Now I know what you're referring to.

This is a catch 22, re: loading, body/foot position,....but you're smack on about it not permitting the body to move through a natural plane and a reduction in the use of stabilizers, (because the smith keeps the user on a singular guided track).

I'm not necessarily a smith fan, but I use it. It surprises me how many people are petrified of free squats and cling to that smith like a life line under the false pretense that it's safer. It's about technique and form, whether you're on the smith or not, but man oh man, it is definitely worthy of discussion!

[.V.]

So were they using it wrong? Because being trapped in a single plane of movement, it appears that with the feet directly under the bar, one is going to end up leaning forward by sticking the butt back too far when trying to get low in a squat. And when I squat, my hams do touch my calves while in the hole.

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by .V.

So were they using it wrong? Because being trapped in a single plane of movement, it appears that with the feet directly under the bar, one is going to end up leaning forward by sticking the butt back too far when trying to get low in a squat. And when I squat, my hams do touch my calves while in the hole.

That's the catch-22 part I mentioned. I can only speak from my personal experience,-- other trainers may have additional/different input, and it's all worth looking at.

With a smith, that is what I do with "most" clients,...they start out in that uncomfortable feeling of leaning back into the bar. It feels very unnatural because in a free squat your feet are directly below you in a normal postural stance. But given the smith, if you start in the same position, feet under the body/bar (this is the tricky bit that's worth debate), on the decent, the form gets shot, the knees travel way over the toes, the back arches, and the axial loading becomes unnatural.

I know that the starting position looks funky, but we're trying to do on the smith is get people to sit "back and down"...considering the restrictions and singular plane movement of "most" smiths, starting with your feet more forward permits that "sitting back and down" movement to occur.

I do not adhere strictly to the belief that your knees should not extend over your toes, and I'm also a full squat person,...but the thing is, in some clubs (such as mine) we are often monitored. While they (ie: management) respect each trainer's unique style, there are certain things we'll get called on if we're seen encouraging: It's "taught" in our certs and in-house training classes, to not let our clients' knees pass their toes,...to only squat to parallel,...and a few other debatable positions. But they're enforcable and backed by our credentials. Our club happens to have an arrangement with one particular certifying agency and they strictly adhere to their disciplines.

Is that how I do them, or how I train my clients? No, I go for full range, and prefer to let the body build up those stabilizers. My belief is that I'd rather see you do light weight full range squats, than jack the weight up (out of ego?) and do partials, hack squats, go to parallel,.... But many trainers out there, especially newly certified or not yet seasoned, will adhere rigidly to the book's guide of "safety" without really researching other sources. It becomes gospil.

We have two smiths, and one of them actually runs at a pitch of almost a 15 degree angle, it isn't straight up vertical. The difference is enormous between how the two feel. Since the bar cannot accomodate free movement, compensations are made (ie: feet forward).

I'd be interested in other CPT's take on this!

This is why I try as much as I can to keep people off all sorts of machines, including the smith....but it isn't always easy.

Whew that was a winded post,.....(ramble, ramble)....

[.V.]

Thank you Merrida, that was very helpful. Since I'm using light weights and yes I've seen an 11 year old squat a 1RM that was heavier than I'm currently working with for my heaviest set of the day...I'd call them very light weights.

I do believe that I'll stick with the squats, bodyweight lunges on non lifting days, and add the leg press.

Thanks again for the input.