Bench and Deadlift

[maverick]

Let's say I wanted to drop any other fitness priority altogether and wanted notihng other than a bigger bench and deadlift; what would be the route to go? Firehawk, I'm looking in your direction.

[DamnImGood]

I think a bigger Dead lift is much more impressive then a big bench press. Bench press is generally just triceps chest and a little bit of shoulders. Dead lift is pretty much your whole entire body. If i were you i would go with the Dead lift route.

[maverick]

Uh, I meant how would one suggest tailoring their training with the only purpose being to increase their deadlift and bench press, not pick one or the other.

BTW, I was leaning towards something based on the westside barbell schedule with ME and DE days, though without as much of the conjugate stuff as I have limited equipment (hence the limited focus). That means no squat rack by the way.

[DamnImGood]

So your asking how would somebody do another exercise to increase their bench press or deadlift?

[Firehawk]

The Bench and Deadlift kind of contradict each other becuase usually someone built to bench (short arms) has a hard time deadlifting, and someone with long arms that is good at deadlifting has a hard time benching.

In response to your general question, at this point my advice would be to train your weaknesses and keep testing those lifts. Keep your upper back as strong as possible and use your lats when you bench to drive the bar off your chest. A stronger back means a better deadlift until your legs become the weakpoint, and then you have to squat. It's all entangled! lol

If your sticking point on the bench is from 0-6" off your chest, train your shoulders hard and your upper back hard with heavy rows. If your sticking point is 10" to lockout area on the bench, train really heavy lockouts, let your body get used to the heavier weight by doing so.

For deadlift, millions of things you can do. Keep changing it up but not every week, your body needs some consistency to adapt. You know how to train by now I'm sure.

Don't make the mistake I did. I started training some lifts in the same manner as those who use equipment in powerlifting meets. I don't think that works too well for the raw lifter. I think most of the time you have to train full range of motion, because otherwise, or at least in my case, if I was training with a 4-board max for a few weeks, then went back to a full range bench, I was weaker off my chest. My body lost strength off my chest even though my lockout got stronger. So I don't do that anymore. I will for example, train a full range bench press, then go on to a lockout exercise for 3 heavy sets or a continous overload with sets of 5 until I can't get 5 anymore, then on to other supplemental exercises.

Sorry for the rambling, but on another note, it's interesting because I just asked arguably the strongest guy in my gym the other day about my bench. He is arguably the most well rounded athlete I've ever been around. He's 46 years old, he goes about 225lbs, shredded, about 5'11, just loaded the 360lb stone on a 5' platform, does strongman as well as powerlifting, pulls 700+, benches over 400 raw, squats I don't even know, but it's sick what he does with band tension, etc. Anyway, I asked him about my bench, and he told me to work my overhead presses, because it's proven that when your overhead press increases, so does your bench, it's just how it goes.

Hopefully some of this helps. I'm not the strongest around here so I'm sure others will have some nice input.

[maverick]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

Don't make the mistake I did. I started training some lifts in the same manner as those who use equipment in powerlifting meets. I don't think that works too well for the raw lifter. I think most of the time you have to train full range of motion, because otherwise, or at least in my case, if I was training with a 4-board max for a few weeks, then went back to a full range bench, I was weaker off my chest. My body lost strength off my chest even though my lockout got stronger. So I don't do that anymore. I will for example, train a full range bench press, then go on to a lockout exercise for 3 heavy sets or a continous overload with sets of 5 until I can't get 5 anymore, then on to other supplemental exercises.

That was a major concern of mine when leaning towards a westside barbell template. But do you think so long as I keep limited ROM exercises to a minimum that it will still be effective for raw lifting (I have no intention of ever donning a lifting suit of any kind)? Seems like it would.

Originally Posted by Firehawk

Anyway, I asked him about my bench, and he told me to work my overhead presses, because it's proven that when your overhead press increases, so does your bench, it's just how it goes.

Hopefully I have that covered as I've been doing primarily KB stuff for the last 6 months. Almost everything those KB junkies do is overhead!

Oh, and would you have an alternative to reverse hypers? I know they are a big deal, but they aren't an option. I just need something else that isn't as draining as a deadlift for my lower back to fill out my accessory work. What about heavy KB swings? Very similar to a pull-through, though that might be more of a hamstring exercise, and I have plenty of those.

[Firehawk]

Very heavy KB swings, standing on something that lifts you off the ground (like synder blocks) and allows you to swing low (sweet chariot) and deep would definitely be good. Do you have access to bands? You could do some band leg curls. I do those by wrapping a band around a post that is sturdy, then sit down in a chair with ankles through the bands and legs extended, then curl your legs as you sit there (legs extended straight, then curl them). There's really not a good substitution for reverse hypers in my opinion, but you can only do what you can do.

How about this one: Get on a hyper extension station (i'm sure your gym has these), and have someone hand a bar to you, put it on your back in the same place you would do a squat. Perform hypers in this manner, keeping your legs straight. You'll hit the same muscles that way, just differently, and it's awesome for the lower back. It's very hard though, so don't kill yourself. Anything over 135 and I need someone there to spot me to make sure I don't crush my head on the floor lol. Usually if you have 45's on, you can get low enough to let the weight hit the ground and the bar come off your back without you slamming your head. Try it and you'll see what i mean. Start with the bar to get used to it. If you have access to bands, you can add bands around your neck, with the bands wrapped to the base of the hyper, and you can also do bands while holding a heavy KB or DB in your hands, adds a little different feeling.

Just remember with Westside templates, they train with the expectation to compete with equipment in meets. So, you can use their templates, and their max effort methods, but change it to suit your full range 90% of the time. The way I have altered it is if for instance i go to an incline full range bench for 3 weeks of max effort, the 2nd exercise I will do DB presses on a flat bench. This keeps the strength there for my flat bench press. Also, If I max with full range flat bench, I'll do a 2nd exercise with very, very heavy lockouts to build the lockout, or go do an incline DB bench press to hit the shoulders, or go to an overhead press. I guess my point is, from my experience, don't neglect that full range of motion for very long. Now, I did this while on a cutting diet, so I might not have lost as much strength if I had been eating and growing the entire time (that whole concept of taking a week off and coming back stronger only works when you're eating for growth, not when you're cutting). Do you understand what I mean?

You can never have a strong enough overhead press, never strong enough back, never strong enough shoulders, never strong enough anything lol.

[Firehawk]

Oh and I got one more awsome exercise for you if you have never thought about it. And don't you even think of attempting this without a spotter because it's so ridiculously hard at first that you'll get owned and I don't want it on my concience. You must have bands for this, and sets of KB's.

Set up your bench press station by looping a mini band through a light KB (start really light) and then hang it from the bar. Do that on both sides obviously. Bench that sucker and watch how crazy that feels. I started talking sh*t one day to someone in the gym, the guy was a 365 raw bencher and he had 185 on the bar with the 16kg KB's on each side. I figured that would be light. I got completely owned. I couldn't even hold it at the lockout at first. It requires every stabilizer muscle in your upper body and back, and also the KB's bounce like crazy which causes all kinds of nuttieness with your muscles. That's a fun one. Give it a try if you have the right equipment.

[DamnImGood]

Damn that sounds crazy, I can see why it is hard though. Using alot more muscles that you never really use.

[maverick]

You got any suggestions on where to start with bands, like where to get a decent set and which ones to buy? I working out at home with limited, ****ty equipment for at least the near future. I have a habit of going nuts on buying accessories when I find a new hobby, so I want to pace myself on this one. Luckily I already have the free weights.

[maverick]

I actually might go the route of westside for skinny basatrds

I remember reading about it a long time ago and skipping over it cause I was too far advanced for something like that (I hope the intense sarcasm can be noticed). As I look at it now, it looks perfect. All the heavy work, frequency, and focus on the big 3 without the stuff tailored for advanced, gear-using, competitive PLs.

Its funny, the further I get in my journey into fitness, the further I seem to go back in terms of being "advanced." A little humility goes a long way.

[Firehawk]

Nice, go with it! The simpler route is usually the better route.

[F_Mac]

I realize this thread is a bit old but i'll throw in my $0.02 anyways.

If it were me, and I was set on getting stronger on only DL and Bench I would stick to doing primarily those 2 movements or variations of them as my primary lifts. I would do one heavy and one light session of each per week (4 in total) and switch up the lifts.

For deads:
Regular DL's
SLDL's
Rack pulls
Deads off blocks (extended ROM)
SSB Squats and/or highbar squats

For Bench
Reg/Inc/Dec. BB or DB Bench
Paused bench work (for all of the above)
Board presses
Pin presses
Floor presses

There is a lot of variation you can toss in there and you can change up the rep schemes as well. As for assistance work, I would stick with what will help you for both lifts and that is tons of ab work and back work. I'd probably do assistance work on my lighter days and keep the reps in the 10-15 range.

That's what I would do..........hopefully this is helpful. It's actually fairly similar to how I train right now only I incorporate squats and a few other assistance exercises in.

[Firehawk]

F-mac is the man