Firehawk

[Firehawk]

Luke,

You immediately jumped on me because I got the hernia bench pressing. No, you didn’t say that you thought the heart problem was from lifting, but it was brought up in this thread. If you do some research on hernias, you’ll find that it says most people do have weaknesses in their abs and sometimes they actually tear, which is what a hernia is. You don’t’ have to be lifting weights to do this. I believe that since I was prone to it anyway, I was bound to have it happen. And I’d like to state this clearly because in my previous posts I am not sure that I did. The only concerns I have about powerlifting are related to my heart. I am not detoured from powerlifting due to the hernia and having to get that fixed.

I am the same way. I don’t feel that complimenting someone on something when they are doing something wrong is the way to go. I don’t get that at the gym. If I am doing something wrong, they don’t tap me on the shoulder and say “nice job”. I get yelled at. That’s what I prefer. But when I do something right, I also get told that I did something right. You don’t really train like me. Last I checked, you don’t even bench press, and sometimes you come off on this board like I should listen to you just because you think you know what you’re talking about. You already made that clear in this thread. Now I’ve asked you questions before and asked Dan questions before, and listened to the advice, but I’m not going to be happy to listen to something you have to say when you try to take something unfortunate that happened to me and then turn around and throw it in my face. And, I don’t really know anyone who would.

Hi Dave,

Just goes to show you that I am not in the know. I didn't know you had an injury and surgery. Stuff happens, particularly when we train pedal to the metal and challenge ourselves. I tore my ACL about 5 years ago, did alot of hard rehab and came back stronger than before, so it was a blessing in disguise. Over a long & healthy life, these events are nothing more than little hiccups.

Merry Christmas!

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by F-Mac

What I will say is that injuries and lifting heavy go hand in hand. Luke, Dan, you guys are not immune, neither am I, we just haven't had our turn yet. Dave is doing something that he loves, powerlifting, this involves moving very heavy weights and training "equipped" because, like anyone with a competitive edge, he want's to do his best, put up the most weight, and maybe even win.

Forcing "heavy lifts" and injuries go hand in hand. Taking your time to develop the strength needed to lift whatever your definition of "heavy" is, does not cause injuries.

And of course no one is safe from injury, at any given point, in the weightroom or not but some things put you at greater risk. And IMO, that's what gear does.

You talk about training equipped for a competitive edge, how about getting stronger and bettering your technique for the edge? How about doing your best and putting up the most weight on YOUR ON? You say "maybe even win"... win what? A plastic trophy that says 1st place? I got a couple trophies and it ain't that big a deal.
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[Dan C]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

Presonal shots at you were not unwarranted, and I did see your final comment before they deleted the thread so don't try to come off as a saint.

Personal shots, while you sit behind a computer, are never "warranted" unless making yourself look like a cyber tough guy is the goal.

I'm no saint, but I've never attacked your person, your business or your background. And because I'm no saint, I find it funny that I know exactly what to say to provoke such responses from you.

Second, I'm not really in an uproar about it. Although, from the start i was thinking on the defensive because what perfect timing to bring up my injury after a heated argument in the previously locked thread.

No heat on this end. As I said, sometimes I say stuff just to get a rise out of you.

But that really isn't what this thread is about.

You want a discussion without me condesending you, yet you continually dismiss my point of view as being ignorant. Argue my logic, not what you perceive my education on the subject as being. Having not "suited up" and tried to max does not make my arguments any less valid.

And third, the equipment DOES protect you at your most vulnerable, whether you want to believe it or not. It's just a side affect that you get more weight out of it.

Keep kidding yourself dude. If it protected you at your most vulnerable area, you wouldn't have busted your gut. If it protected you, you would use it for anything over your 90% 1rm and not try to add an additional 100lbs to your max. If YOU, Dave, aka Firehawk, believed it protected YOUR most vulnerable area, you wouldn't think about your heart condition when you step under the bar.

Speaking of which, I commend you for taking up exercise regardless of your heart condition. I believe inherently, we (meaning you), know what's best for ourselves. That's why I think that you know, lifting a weight so far beyond your natural capability is risky business, and that's why getting under a heavy weight concerns you, and your condition.

If your muscles have not even been trained to lift the weight, how could your "insides" be prepared for it?

You guys need to take your personal discussions to the PM level.

[LiftGirl]

Originally Posted by pierini

You guys need to take your personal discussions to the PM level.

Don't want to contradict your Pierini, and you're a mod so the decision is yours, but I'm enjoying following the discussion on the pros and cons of powerlifting equipment.

Sorry for the confusion. The issues discussion should be wide open as we all learn from them. It's the person attacks that we can all do without.

It's great to attack the issues with passion but we shouldn't attack the characters at all preferably but for sure not in the open.

[Firehawk]

The fact that you are trying to talk about equipment when you don't know what it is or what it does or how it protects a lifter or how it even works is exactly why your argument is less valid. You can try to logically guess but honestly, you'll never know until you are inside the equipment. But I will say you guess right about the internal pressure.

If you knew about hernias, you would know that somenoe can get up off a couch and "bust their gut". Someone can bend over to pick something up and spring a hernia. Children are born with hernias, or get them at young ages. It just so happened that I sprung mine on the bench press (HANDLING LESS WEIGHT THAN I HAVE PREVIOUSLY BY THE WAY) and if it hadn't happened then, it was bound to happen eventually, because I was prone to it. And we know that now because I HAD ONE OCCUR. Talk to a doctor. He'll tell you the same thing. It is not one of those things you can't protect against by keeping your abs strong or packing on ab muscle.

No, I am concerned when my heart rate gets accelerated whatsoever. I am concerned when I pull a raw max deadlift. I'm concerned when I pull a set of 6 deadlifts. I am concerned when I do rapid sets of 20 or 50 band pushdowns, because my heart rate gets up there. I am concerned when I do any lifting well within my raw capabilities. I am concerned when I do HIIT cardio, or walk up enough stairs to tire me out. And yes, I'm also concerned when i am in a squat suit trying to squat 600 and my head feels like it is going to explode.

The fact is, i have been concerned long before you ever said anything to me about this. This is something I have to try not to get an anxiety attack over day in and day out. Whether I go for a walk and feel some paused beats or skipped beats, or whether I walk up a flight of stairs and afterward have some palpitations. No matter how physically fit I am or how fat, or how light, or how strong I am, I'm always going to be worried about it. Hopefully over time I will relax more and more about it. I was on heart meds to keep the heart rate down, now I'm off that and enjoying it. It was a crutch and when I came off, it was like a head game with me. Sometimes at night, becuase i had the worst attack happen to me at 1am when i was sleeping, I still have trouble going to bed. This isn't because of powerlifting, this is because I have to battle this now for the rest of my life. It isn't like a broken leg where it mends and you can strengthen it. I will always probably have skipped beats and every time I have one I will say in the back of my mind "will this trigger another attack, one that I am supposed to be cured from"? I don't wiish this sh*t on anyone and it sucks that I ever had to go through it.

In using the equipment, yeah it worries me, because the internal pressure is above and beyond what my body is naturally capable of and with the time off I have done serious thinking about that. And to be honest, I'm not so sure it is safe for me anymore. So, if I do choose not to use full gear, I will probably still compete because I enjoy it. But that is what I feel is best for me, and since you started this thread for my sake, and what is best for me and not about powerlifting in general, let's talk about my situation instead of powerlfiting as a whole. And if I make the choice not to use the equipment anymore, it will be because of my constnat worrying about my heart, not because of a hernia injury.

Firehawk - are your raw lifts progressing?

And if they are, is that progression keeping pace with what you are making in your suited lifts?

I'm curious because I used to use straps while deadlifting and while I made good gains in my lifts my forearms became a weak point. My "raw" lifts never got as good as they could have if I didn't use the straps.

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by IronMan

Firehawk - are your raw lifts progressing?

And if they are, is that progression keeping pace with what you are making in your suited lifts?

I'm curious because I used to use straps while deadlifting and while I made good gains in my lifts my forearms became a weak point. My "raw" lifts never got as good as they could have if I didn't use the straps.

Dude for now I am trying to rehab and strengthen my core and try to get back to where I was. Using gear is not really in the near future for me.

[F_Mac]

Originally Posted by Dan C

Forcing "heavy lifts" and injuries go hand in hand. Taking your time to develop the strength needed to lift whatever your definition of "heavy" is, does not cause injuries.

And of course no one is safe from injury, at any given point, in the weightroom or not but some things put you at greater risk. And IMO, that's what gear does.

You talk about training equipped for a competitive edge, how about getting stronger and bettering your technique for the edge? How about doing your best and putting up the most weight on YOUR ON? You say "maybe even win"... win what? A plastic trophy that says 1st place? I got a couple trophies and it ain't that big a deal.

For someone who trains heavy, I don't know how you can say this and believe it. All it takes is a split second loss of concentration, a small twist or spasm, a bad spotter, or trying to push that extra rep when you are just too tired. With increasing weight, comes a greater level of focus required to control it. If lose form with 100 lbs doing a 10 reps set of bench, you're probably not going to injure yourself. Lose your form a bit with a 405 raw max attempt and your chance of injury is much much greater.

Lets face it, from a "health" point of view, hardcore strength training with very heavy weight for low reps is not ideal and poses much more risk than sticking to weights that you can handle for 8-12 reps.

As for competing and winning, well, yeah, I enjoy lifting just for the sake of lifting, however I am competitive by nature. Why wouldn't I want to move the most weight possible within the limits of the rules? Using a bench shirt or squat suit takes practice and skill............and yeah, it helps you move a little more weight than you normally could without it. I don't expect you to understand this fully as you haven't lifted with gear before. You can look at it like this, why does a professional swimmer shave all their body hair? Why does a hockey player use a fiberglass stick? Because these things help give the athlete an edge.

[Firehawk]

Since the body adapts to pertty much anything, wouldn't the body get used to the internal pressure if someone used equpment frequently enough and thus make it less dangerous than if someone never used it and went 2-300 lbs over their raw max or whatever??

[MostMuscle]

Originally Posted by F-Mac

For someone who trains heavy, I don't know how you can say this and believe it. All it takes is a split second loss of concentration, a small twist or spasm, a bad spotter, or trying to push that extra rep when you are just too tired. With increasing weight, comes a greater level of focus required to control it. If lose form with 100 lbs doing a 10 reps set of bench, you're probably not going to injure yourself. Lose your form a bit with a 405 raw max attempt and your chance of injury is much much greater.

Lets face it, from a "health" point of view, hardcore strength training with very heavy weight for low reps is not ideal and poses much more risk than sticking to weights that you can handle for 8-12 reps.

As for competing and winning, well, yeah, I enjoy lifting just for the sake of lifting, however I am competitive by nature. Why wouldn't I want to move the most weight possible within the limits of the rules? Using a bench shirt or squat suit takes practice and skill............and yeah, it helps you move a little more weight than you normally could without it. I don't expect you to understand this fully as you haven't lifted with gear before. You can look at it like this, why does a professional swimmer shave all their body hair? Why does a hockey player use a fiberglass stick? Because these things help give the athlete an edge.

Nice post.

Originally Posted by Dan C

Forcing "heavy lifts" and injuries go hand in hand. Taking your time to develop the strength needed to lift whatever your definition of "heavy" is, does not cause injuries. And of course no one is safe from injury, at any given point, in the weightroom or not but some things put you at greater risk. And IMO, that's what gear does

Originally Posted by F-Mac

All it takes is a split second loss of concentration, a small twist or spasm, a bad spotter, or trying to push that extra rep when you are just too tired. With increasing weight, comes a greater level of focus required to control it.

Valid points all the way around.

Putting in the time necessary to develop overall body strength takes much longer and more effort than most people realize. It is why elite athletes become elite. Their body has the ability to adapt quicker and remain injury free longer than most other people. And their minds stay in the game regarless of what is going on around them.

[Dan C]

I understand what gear does, how it works and the fact that there is a learning curve in using it. What I don't understand is how you guys think there is some mystique about gear.

In an unbiased sense, I probably understand it better than you guys who so adamantly defend it. It's not rocket science, and training with it is not somehow going to impart some deep spiritual understanding.

Firehawk, I've been in the "game" since before you knew what a bench shirt was. The points I raise weren't just formulated overnight, they are not spin-offs of what the guys at my gym tell me and they are not just ignorant asumptions from some unknown internet personality. Again, instead of debating the point, you base your argument on the fact that I am a raw lifter. That holds no water.

But I do agree that the body could adapt to handling extreme internal pressures if they were introduced in an intellegent manner. Just as the body can adapt from a blow from a 5lb medicine ball being dropped from 12" up, to a 20lb pumpkin being dropped from a ladder.

However, the hairless swimmer and the fiberglass hockey stick argument I don't buy. I've went over this before. Equipment is not a competitive edge, it's a competition in and of itself that has created more division in an already segregated sport. The competition is between Inzer, Titan, Metal and the like.