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[threenorns]

without the public, there's no interest. without the interest, there are no gyms and the next thing you know, obesity in the US has increased 75% since 1991.

oh... wait....

armour is like juice - if they want to compete in the Big Leagues, they have to use it, like it or not, or they just don't qualify. without the freaks keeping the public interested, there's no coverage for the sport and your gym is telling you to please keep quiet and stop doing those loud workouts because you're scaring the cardio bunnies.

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by Dan C

You make it sound as if raw lifting was the ridiculous spin off of the original sport. It's the other way around. It's not just another game like hockey or basketball, it really is out-of-control.

I don't understand your mindset of "Unfortunately, to win competitions you have to use gear (unless you do a raw meet but the market is bigger for gear meets)"

First of all, who gives a sh*t about a bigger market? What is this market, who does it belong to and why do you care?

And what's the big deal about winning one of these contests (in one of the many federations), or to even compete in these contests?

Chasing this "bigger market" is very similar to the natural bodybuilder who dreams of going pro.

I brought this stuff up yesterday at the gym, and the guys were telling me that powerlifting competitions never really were 100% raw. They still taped their joints and did what they could to get extra for each lift. They were telling stories of people that used to take golf balls and put them inside their elbows, then duct tape their joints. Duct tape their quads, all kinds of crap.

Like i said Dan, lifting with equpiment on is apples and lifting raw is oranges. It's a sport, just like any other sport. You wanna win at that game then you learn to use the equipment. And what's the big deal? Well, if you aren't into powerlifting then there's nothing I could say to explain it. It's just something that is fun to do. That's like me asking you "why do you like a particular hobby that you do?" BECAUSE YOU DO.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Every federation is different, some allow equipment, others don't. Some are bigger than others.

[luke.w]

the public doesn't know anything about strength contests, you could bench the raw world record and people will be amazed.

does the public even have any interest in strength comps.?
The majority of spectators seems to be other people in the irongame.

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by luke.w

the public doesn't know anything about strength contests, you could bench the raw world record and people will be amazed.

does the public even have any interest in strength comps.?
The majority of spectators seems to be other people in the irongame.

Let's justsay bodybuilding definitely is the leader in visibility.

Why are you even bringing that up? There's no money in powerlifting ok? People do it for the love of the sport. Can that be said for bodybuilding? Doubt it. Don't know about strongman but there's probably not too much money in that either.

By the way, there's some bigger federations that are "clean" federations such as the AAPF, and that's the type of thing I'm looking at competing in. But if you want to attempt to put the WPO on the same level as Mr. Olympia, i don't know how you could compare that other than if youre looking at drug use, but go ahead. Again, everyone has their opinion and they are entitled to it.

What I do I do for me, not anyone else. But I do it because I love the sport and I love lifting the way I do.

[luke.w]

I brought it up because threenorns did, but it was a dumb question becasue I forgot that in canada and scandinavia the general public loves their strength heros unlike here in USA.

[Firehawk]

I gotcha lukey.

[threenorns]

Originally Posted by luke.w

I forgot that in canada and scandinavia the general public loves their strength heros unlike here in USA

aye, laddie, that we do!

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

I brought this stuff up yesterday at the gym, and the guys were telling me that powerlifting competitions never really were 100% raw. They still taped their joints and did what they could to get extra for each lift. They were telling stories of people that used to take golf balls and put them inside their elbows, then duct tape their joints. Duct tape their quads, all kinds of crap.

Like i said Dan, lifting with equpiment on is apples and lifting raw is oranges. It's a sport, just like any other sport. You wanna win at that game then you learn to use the equipment. And what's the big deal? Well, if you aren't into powerlifting then there's nothing I could say to explain it. It's just something that is fun to do. That's like me asking you "why do you like a particular hobby that you do?" BECAUSE YOU DO.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Every federation is different, some allow equipment, others don't. Some are bigger than others.

Of course these gear heads are going to defend their pursuits, say things like it was never really raw... bullsh*t! The competition originally contested absolute strength; now, the gear is about as big a factor in the comp as the strength of the lifter. The last word in your first paragraph tells me you view assisted lifting in a similar mannar as I do, be it duct tape or triple ply denim.

I am into strength & power in all forms of lifting. If you were to ask me why I chose this particular hobby/career path I could give you many reasons, not just say "because I do". That's the kind of answer from someone who does not think for themselves.

You say it's fun but you have yet to compete. Is it still fun when you are outlifted by a weaker man because he has better gear? Or because he "knows how to use the equipment"? Is winning that gratifying if you beat a stronger man that hasn't learned to use his equipment?

Gear adds another variable to strength athletics. It skews the results of true strength. This is the reason I am not interested in it. So I ask you again, why are you interested in it (over raw lifting)?

[Firehawk]

When i compete in my first meet it's going to be done raw. I have been to many meets and I just enjoy being there. You ever go somewhere and you know you are in the right place?

Ok, fair enough, I haven't done it yet, but I will. And I know I'm going to like it. For now I am not going to be in it to win it, i'm just not strong enough. But one day hopefully I will. The thing that we can't forget about is why we really do what we do, and it ultimately boils down to "because we love to do it", period.

The thing is you have to keep it in perspective. If the rules are that you can use such and such equipment, and someone chooses not to, is that your fault? No. Like i said, you almost have to take these things and separate them, raw lifting vs equipment lifting.

The people at my gym are in competitions to win them. It is what they want to do, and to win those kinds of competition (equipment assisted) you have to train and learn how to use the equipment. Just like any other sport.

[Firehawk]

I'm typing fast here because i'm at work and shoudln't be online, but this is a good conversation.

Just thinking quickly, you could compare the equipment assisted lifting to any other sport that could enhance performance of the athlete.

[Dan C]

You could compare it to playing basketball on a pogostick so you can jump higher.

This kind of equipment does not improve the performance of the athlete like lighter or more aerodynamic uniforms do. This kind of equipment ASSISTS you in doing something that you normally could not.

Since you know a little more about gear than me, can you confirm that in some bench shirts you actually have to pull the bar to your chest unless you have a minimum amount of weight to force the bar down?

I've heard that in some shirts you can get up to 300lbs added to your bench, and it takes as much as 225 just to get the bar to touch your chest.

It's like the high jump event with a spring board!

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by Dan C

You could compare it to playing basketball on a pogostick so you can jump higher.

This kind of equipment does not improve the performance of the athlete like lighter or more aerodynamic uniforms do. This kind of equipment ASSISTS you in doing something that you normally could not.

Since you know a little more about gear than me, can you confirm that in some bench shirts you actually have to pull the bar to your chest unless you have a minimum amount of weight to force the bar down?

I've heard that in some shirts you can get up to 300lbs added to your bench, and it takes as much as 225 just to get the bar to touch your chest.

It's like the high jump event with a spring board!

Sure.

Yes, the tighter the shirt, the harder it is to pull that weight down, and yes, you have to literally PULL it down to get it to touch. But what you forget is that you have to learn the groove of the shirt. You have to train in it. You can't just simply throw it on and get 300 lbs out of it. You have to train your lockout strength. You have to train the technique of pressing in a shirt.

So, i disagree to an extent.

Just this past WPO meet, the owner of my gym, Clay Brandenburg, opened with 843 on the bar. In the gym he coudln't get that weight to touch. He had it about 1 inch from his chest and did everything he could to get it to touch but the shirt was too tight. He has locked out 900 in the gym in a shirt with ease. Well he had the same problems at the meet. So, he lost. Was he the strongest man there? Perhaps he was, but the game was who could bench the most with the equipment allowed by the rules.

You might think it's crazy that 843 can't touch, just the thought of that you gotta be thinking "what kind of material could possibly withstand that? lol. And i agree, it does sound crazy, and it is quite astounding, but that's part of the game man. You really cannot compare this kind of lifting with raw lifting. They are apples and oranges. You may find this type of game silly and that's fine, it's your opinion, you're entitled to it.

Having said that, i can completely see what you are trying to get at, at least I think, and I understand because I feel the same way to some degree. Why can't it be the strongest man wins? But that's what i'm trying to say, raw lifting and lifting in bench shirts, or in briefs, is just a completely different game man. And, it is a game.

Putting on a really really really really tight pair of squat briefs doesn't mean you're going to suddenly be able to set a squat world record. You have to develop the core strength to support that weight.

The only lift in powerlifting that has little effect (but helps, just very little) is a deadlift suit. That's raw strength right there for the most part.

So there's a little more to powerlifting (with equipment) than throwing something on and getting bigger numbers.

To site another example, dude just recently benched 405 raw dog, he's about 200 lbs. Very awesome to witness by the way. That was his first time ever doing that. Clay put a bench shirt on him and he couldn't bench 425. The guy's lockout strength wasn't strong enough, and he hadn't ever trained in the shirt before. The technique used to push weight with a shirt is completely different than the technique used in raw benching.

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

You have to train the technique of pressing in a shirt.

Just like you'd have to train the pogo stick.

[Firehawk]

I dont' think that's giving enough respect but whatever.

[threenorns]

what firehawk is saying is that raw powerlifting and equipped powerlifting are NOT (repeat and note the word "not") the same thing. they're two different sports - it's not like doing basketball with pogosticks, it's more like american football versus aussie rules football.

are american football player sissies because they wear all that equipment? are aussie football players more manly because they don't?