Homemade Video Clips

[luke.w]

right, and the thing is no one really knows "jack" about epuip. or non-equip. see this is classic irongame "show" but with just a modern twist.

all throughout history the irongame has been about tricks and showmanship along with strength, even way back I've read about strongmen using fake bells in their shows, they were strong enough to lift the "claimed weight", but were doing this daily and it was their job, IMO if they were not strong enough to do it everday they had no buisness claiming this stuff, they should have just used a lighter bell.

Many modern PL'ers call Paul Anderson,Louis Cry frauds, but the PL'ers aren't any differant if this was true, if anything Paul and Cry were much more real than the equip. lifters becasue these guys did the squats just above parallel or did their squats from the bottom, this is in the neigborhood of doing a "board press" or box squat witch seems to me like what a real "shirted bench press" or suited squat really is, a damn board press witch I have great respect for.

Bud Jefferies (modern day strongman) is another guy who has been "flammed" on the internet by PL'ers becasue on his site www.strongerman.com he does a bottom position squat with 1,000lbs thats high, but he ain't got no damn suit on, it would be no differant than someone doing a "board press" or a partial bench from the pins and again, sound just like a "shirted bench" really is.

but try to do a board press in front of people who don't know any better like at the Mr. Olyimpia, this shirted stuff just fools people into believeing this stuff, I give them credit for being "slick".

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by threenorns

what firehawk is saying is that raw powerlifting and equipped powerlifting are NOT (repeat and note the word "not") the same thing. they're two different sports - it's not like doing basketball with pogosticks, it's more like american football versus aussie rules football.

are american football player sissies because they wear all that equipment? are aussie football players more manly because they don't?

Threenorns you have a habit of piping in on things that you seem to know very little about.

I understand what he's saying, he's said it like 5 times already... apples and oranges... I know. It's you that don't understand what I'm saying!

American or Aussie rules football has nothing do to with anything, two very different games, separated by much more than what equipment you are allowed to wear. And the equipment worn in American football is for protection... it doesn't help the quarterback throw farther and it doesn't help the running back run faster. It doesn't improve performance beyond what the athlete is capable of doing himself. Understand? I hope so because being "manly" has nothing to do with it.

Basketball on a pogostick is a completely ridiculous analogy, and that's part of the reason why I chose to use it. Not being able to touch your chest with a 843lb barbell is also completely, and utterly ridiculous!

Firehawk if I'm coming across as not respecting assisted lifting, it's because I don't. I'm interested in natural strength! Lose the gear, lose the drugs and then we have a respectable sporting event. This market you speak of is mostly knucklehead powerlifters looking to stroke their ego by lifting the heaviest weight possible, by ANY means possible. Do you think the "fans" of this market (besides the PL'ers themselves) view this as anything more than a freak show?

[Firehawk]

If you ever been around powerlifting meets you would see that 99% of them do not have an ego. There's always the occasional as*hole but that's in every sport. My girlfriend said it best. I took her to her first powerlifting meet when my gym competed, and she turned to me and said "you know, you'd think these guys would be the biggest a-holes on the planet and have massive egos but they are the nicest people you would ever meet". But these same guys will load plates for you, give you pointers, bend over backward to help you out.

Again, you are looking at them as being the same thing, whether you say it or not. You are interested in natural strength. That's fine, but natural strength lifts cannot be compared to assisted lifts. For the record I'm also interested in natural raw strength.

You guys still make it sound like it's as simple as putting on the equipment and getting 300 lbs out of it when it's not.

And luke, no, a shirted press is not essentially the same as a board press. There's just more to it than that.

Again I think i understand what you guys are trying to get across, the thing you have to realize is that it is two separate games, raw and assisted. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. You have world records for the person who can spend the most time in a cage with tarantulas, so why is it so 'ludicrus" to have world records with assisted lifting? It's just another record. If you choose to have no respect for it then that's fine, don't. But at least undrestand what it takes to use the equipment (technique, different training) before you dog it out.

By the way, i recently saw a video of a powerlifter squat 720 below parallel for 5 reps, without so much as a belt or knee wraps. Talk about being impressed ok? Was i impressed by that more than a 1200 assisted squat? FOR SURE! How can you not be? But that's not what i'm disputing here with you guys.

[Firehawk]

One day i'mma mosey on out to Maryland and we gonna do some cross training over dare .

I'mma bring my gear, I'mma bring my heart pills for the strongman stuff, and we gonna learn some respect for each other's fields of strength training :

HEHEHE

That would be fun though wouldn't it?

[luke.w]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

If you ever been around powerlifting meets you would see that 99% of them do not have an ego. There's always the occasional as*hole but that's in every sport. My girlfriend said it best. I took her to her first powerlifting meet when my gym competed, and she turned to me and said "you know, you'd think these guys would be the biggest a-holes on the planet and have massive egos but they are the nicest people you would ever meet". But these same guys will load plates for you, give you pointers, bend over backward to help you out.

your not telling me anything I don't know here, both Dan and I have trained with capt. Kirk and Julie Scanlon (sorry if spelled wrong) I thought they were super-nice people for sure!!!

[Dan C]

Just let us know when you're gonna be in town. Why don't you try and make it to the Arnold next year? $10 gets you access to everything but the bodybuilding shows (oh, darn). You game for it this year, Luke?

I hear what your saying about the different technique raw vs assisted. I agree. But do you think assisted lifting requires more or less technique? Gotta follow the 'groove' of the shirt right? Is it even technique as much as it's manipulation?

I hear what you're saying about two different sports. I disagree, in that assisted lifting is an off-shoot of what once was (now called 'raw' lifting). It's on a downward spiral, can't you see that? And all the "improvements" in the equipment contributes to it's demise. Rest assured that the equipment manufacturers will continue to produce "bigger and better" gear, and this game will more and more be determined by who's got the best equipment.

People set 'records' for some pretty crazy things, some downright stupid. I respect the training that goes behind any kind of powerlifting but wearing special suits that help you lift more isn't something that impresses me... it's misleading at best.

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by luke.w

your not telling me anything I don't know here, both Dan and I have trained with capt. Kirk and Julie Scanlon (sorry if spelled wrong) I thought they were super-nice people for sure!!!

What do you expect when comments like this are thrown out "This market you speak of is mostly knucklehead powerlifters looking to stroke their ego by lifting the heaviest weight possible..."

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by Dan C

Just let us know when you're gonna be in town. Why don't you try and make it to the Arnold next year? $10 gets you access to everything but the bodybuilding shows (oh, darn). You game for it this year, Luke?

I hear what your saying about the different technique raw vs assisted. I agree. But do you think assisted lifting requires more or less technique? Gotta follow the 'groove' of the shirt right? Is it even technique as much as it's manipulation?

I hear what you're saying about two different sports. I disagree, in that assisted lifting is an off-shoot of what once was (now called 'raw' lifting). It's on a downward spiral, can't you see that? And all the "improvements" in the equipment contributes to it's demise. Rest assured that the equipment manufacturers will continue to produce "bigger and better" gear, and this game will more and more be determined by who's got the best equipment.

People set 'records' for some pretty crazy things, some downright stupid. I respect the training that goes behind any kind of powerlifting but wearing special suits that help you lift more isn't something that impresses me... it's misleading at best.

DAN I will be at the Arnold next year for certain! We'll get together then. Do i think assisted lifting requires less technique than raw lifting? Yes I do honestly. But that is not what we're talking about. It's still another game.

The best way for you to understand and earn the respect of what it takes to master a shirt or get the most out of it is to try it out. I don't know if you've ever tried it (i would assume not given your responses), but every shirt has a different groove to it, and while there are things you can do to make a shirt tighter, or looser, no two shirts are the same.

And for the record man, I do agree that as the equipment gets better the numbers will get bigger. But you say that assisted powerlifting is on a downward spiral, but from what to what? Where did it start and why do you think it's headed "downward"? I think they should stop improving the equipment, pick one certain type of material or whatever, so everyone has the exact same gear, and then let the people get better at using it or get stronger with it.

Yes, it is misleading to the uninformed for sure. The thing to respect is the type of trianing that is required to get bigger numbers with equipment on. It's vastly different from training for raw numbers.

Anyway, I will be at the Arnold (godwilling) this year. I went to the WPO meet 2 weekends ago in Chicago and i got super sick that weekend, ended up not even seeing it. I have a friend who wants to compete in the amateur Jiu Jitsu competitions over there as well. One thing I can promise you though, I won't be going to any bodybuilding competitions .

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

And for the record man, I do agree that as the equipment gets better the numbers will get bigger. But you say that assisted powerlifting is on a downward spiral, but from what to what? Where did it start and why do you think it's headed "downward"? I think they should stop improving the equipment, pick one certain type of material or whatever, so everyone has the exact same gear, and then let the people get better at using it or get stronger with it.

Yes, it is misleading to the uninformed for sure. The thing to respect is the type of trianing that is required to get bigger numbers with equipment on. It's vastly different from training for raw numbers.

It originated with raw lifting! A mans strength versus gravity. Equipment went from a little to a lot. Now you have single, double, triple ply denim and whatever else. You've got a 'sport' with a thousand different federations that have a thousand different rules. There is no unity, they'll never agree on anything and they'll never stop 'improving' the equipment. By the time you do compete in an equipped meet, your shirt will be overshadowed by the "new and improved" and it's likely that a lesser man will beat you simply because of his gear.

Perhaps the knucklehead part of my comment was a bit harsh, I know a lot of powerlifters that compete full armor. If that's your thing and you don't mind blowing your money of the gear - fine, but if you're getting into it BECAUSE of this "market" and whatever prestige it holds, I would say that makes you a knucklehead.

And I wouldn't say *training* for assisted lifting is VASTLY different from lifting raw. Pretty comparable actually. You still have to build raw strength before fine tuning it with the gear on. I just don't understand the desire to do that, just like I don't understand the desire to be in a cage with tarantulas. Is it the recognition? The false pretense that you're lifting more weight? Is it that much more fun than lifting raw?

[threenorns]

Originally Posted by Dan C

American or Aussie rules football has nothing do to with anything, two very different games, separated by much more than what equipment you are allowed to wear. And the equipment worn in American football is for protection... it doesn't help the quarterback throw farther and it doesn't help the running back run faster. It doesn't improve performance beyond what the athlete is capable of doing himself. Understand? I hope so because being "manly" has nothing to do with it.

MUST you be such a linear thinker? it's comparing the *superficial* resemblance between the two sports: raw powerlifting and geared powerlifting both lift weights to get points; aussie rules and american football both put a ball into a goal zone to get points. you have no trouble separating those two sports, but you have a lot of difficulty separating geared powerlifting from raw powerlifting. american football, believe it or not, originated an awful lot like aussie rules - there was no equipment. then someone decided they needed safety equipment and don't tell me that gear doesn't impact performance - do you think they'd tackle anywhere near as hard if they weren't wearing half a ton of fibreglass?

my apologies if i'm using concepts a bit too advanced for you - i'll try to dumb it down in future just for you.

[Dan C]

Thank you for another post that makes little sense! Very seldom do I actually laugh out loud...

Pads and helmets do not make players tackle harder. All it does it protect them from getting hurt.

Protection vs performance... this shouldn't be that hard to grasp.

[luke.w]

I'd think football players would lose some performance with all that stuff on, but I'm no football player so?.

witch brings me to strongman gear, now I stated it sucks that suits have entered the strongman world, and it does for deads and squats, it does suck I think.

but then there are the guys who wrap themselves up from head to toe when doing the other events, now I think alot of that is mental like some do it for protection others do it to maybe make the weight seem lighter? I'm not sure.
but I honestly think that all that gear would hold back a strongman in some carring events, it's extra baggage, but then if the event is something like a very super-heavy yoke carry?, these things really make no differance in the strongman events (except squat, and deadlift) I competed against a guy who was wrapped all over, and I almost won (I was 100% raw, no belt)
I lost because he was truly stronger than me, he's got more experiance and he's older, but I'm gaining on him.

[Dan C]

Yeah, a 'half a ton of fiberglass' would definitely slow you up.

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by Dan C

It originated with raw lifting! A mans strength versus gravity. Equipment went from a little to a lot. Now you have single, double, triple ply denim and whatever else. You've got a 'sport' with a thousand different federations that have a thousand different rules. There is no unity, they'll never agree on anything and they'll never stop 'improving' the equipment. By the time you do compete in an equipped meet, your shirt will be overshadowed by the "new and improved" and it's likely that a lesser man will beat you simply because of his gear.

Perhaps the knucklehead part of my comment was a bit harsh, I know a lot of powerlifters that compete full armor. If that's your thing and you don't mind blowing your money of the gear - fine, but if you're getting into it BECAUSE of this "market" and whatever prestige it holds, I would say that makes you a knucklehead.

And I wouldn't say *training* for assisted lifting is VASTLY different from lifting raw. Pretty comparable actually. You still have to build raw strength before fine tuning it with the gear on. I just don't understand the desire to do that, just like I don't understand the desire to be in a cage with tarantulas. Is it the recognition? The false pretense that you're lifting more weight? Is it that much more fun than lifting raw?

Lighter ice skates might make a hockey player move faster, enhancing his performance. Better sticks might help him be more accurate with his puck handling/shooting. Could you imagine trying to play football without cleets (spelling) on? lol

Anyway, with regard to your last post, I do'nt know if i mislead you into thinking i was planning on becoming a world record holder or something . There's not a big market for this, and that's why i said earlier that people do it because they love to do it. I also think that's why there isn't the ego problem that you might see in bodybuilding or any big market sport.

By the way, i didn't know federations were at odds with each other. Some are drug tested, others aren't, some allow certain types of equipment, others don't. They all have different rules but I didnt know they were trying to 'agree" on something.

And I agree that sure it could get expensive, any sport is typically an investment. And yeah i'm sure there's guys losing who really are stronger but because they dump the weight in teh shirt or don't get the squat quite low enough for wahtever reason, they don't place at the meet.

As far as why someone might want to do this, well that's for each person to answer on his own. I want to be strnog as hell RAW, I already said that earlier. I think when i get into doing this stuff it will be because it's alot of fun, and it is. I've done it at the gym (not at a meet yet) and it's just fun seeing what you can do with it. But most importantly, lifting big weight and getting as big as i can while doing it is something that I want to do for me. I want to be healthy and have a hobby that i can maybe pass on to someone one day, somethign that means something (to me anyway). I lift now for me and that will never change. Last thing i want is "expectations", where i feel like i have tod o something or i'm a piece of garbage.

Training for raw lifts is quite a bit different than training for equipment (except the deadlift, that's pretty much raw even with a deadlift suit and I don't think people train that differently for that lift but I could be wrong, i'm not an expert at this yet), and i'll site a few examples.

When benching raw, you can't neglect the lower part of your bench. You can neglect it a bit when you use a shirted bench though. If you raw bench you have to pause the weight at the bottom, with a shirt, you are pausing but the shirt is doing the work. Both you should train for max speed, but the techniques are quite different to get optimal push. So if you want to call that a comparable difference, then ok i can give ya that one. I think it's quite a bit different though.

Actually, probably the bench is the most different one. Squatting and deadlifting not so much.

[Dan C]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

Lighter ice skates might make a hockey player move faster, enhancing his performance. Better sticks might help him be more accurate with his puck handling/shooting. Could you imagine trying to play football without cleets (spelling) on? lol

...with a shirt, you are pausing but the shirt is doing the work.

Enough said.

Here's some videos...

www.bemoretraining.com/vids/cleans.wmv
www.bemoretraining.com/vids/lar.wmv
www.bemoretraining.com/vids/luke730.wmv