question on dynamic effort

[beefcurry1]

when doing dynamic effort lifts what is the speed of the negative? should i have a slow negative and then explode up or go fast with both? under control of course.

[abarlament]

I just looked through a bunch of Louie's articles on deepsquatter but didn't find anything about it. I remember someone on a PL forum said to lower it as fast as you can while under control, and change directions fast.

[beefcurry1]

you're right abar. i just found this.

it says as fast a negative as you can do under strict control. there is other good info on this link too.

[Lee J B]

Yes, you need to bring it down as fast and accurate as possible. As if your really having to pull on the bar (bench as an example), not just let it into a controlled fall.

[beefcurry1]

ok after reading this a few times, and some routines, i have a few more questions about this:

1) why do less experienced people use less weight than more experienced?

is it because the more experienced have more explosive power, which in turn would apply more total force to a lighter weight thus being more dynamic?

2)i see in this article it says to do 8x3. i have seen routines at fortifiediron where guys were doing sets in the 20-30 rep range for DE lifts. whats up with that?

[TommyD]

Originally Posted by beefcurry1

ok after reading this a few times, and some routines, i have a few more questions about this:

1) why do less experienced people use less weight than more experienced?

is it because the more experienced have more explosive power, which in turn would apply more total force to a lighter weight thus being more dynamic?

If you're referring to the percentages he has in that article concerning how much an expert/intermediate/advanced lifter should lift, it probably has to do with a few things. Explosive power, form, and probably knowing your own limits are three of the biggest reasons I could see as to why there would be less weight for a beginner as opposed to an expert.

And as far as the 20-30 reps goes, was it for the DE bench, or just one of the follow up exercises for triceps or shoulders? If it was for the DE bench, that goes against the whole flow of the training your looking at, and really doesn't make too much sense. On the other hand, if it were for the secondary lifts, then it's probably their personal preference to have some high rep lifts.

[beefcurry1]

ok sorry about the high reps question. i didnt look at the routine very long and made too quick an assumption. that was part of the warmup.

Originally Posted by Tom_Drahos

If you're referring to the percentages he has in that article concerning how much an expert/intermediate/advanced lifter should lift, it probably has to do with a few things. Explosive power, form, and probably knowing your own limits are three of the biggest reasons I could see as to why there would be less weight for a beginner as opposed to an expert.

the article says BEGINNER/intermediate/advanced. it says a beginner should use a higher % of his 1RM than an advanced lifter (beginner 60%/intermediate 55%/ advanced 50%)

either way that seems aweful light. my 1RM is roughly 260. i couldnt imagine doing 8x3 at 155.

[TommyD]

Okay, my bad, I read the article incorrectly.

The point of dynamic effort is to get the same force you would get by benching 300 lbs at a normal rate by benching half of it twice as fast. If you bench 150 lbs twice as fast as you bench 300 pounds, it gives you the same force as you would get from the 300 lbs.

With the dynamic effort training, when you're a beginner, you're probably not going to be able to bench very quickly as opposed to an expert lifter. Therefore you put more weight on the bar, bench it slower, and you get the same force as someone benching 10% less than you, but 10% faster.

The more advanced of a lifter you get to be, the faster your can bench the weight, thus using a smaller percentage of your 1 RM to reach the same force you would get as you bench your 1 RM normally.

It's basically using Newton's second law that says:

Force (net) is equal to Mass * Acceleration.

So if you ignore the acceleration of gravity at this point, you can see it this way:

Benching your 1 RM at normal speed:

10kg * 1 m/s/s = 10 N

Benching 50% of your 1 RM at twice the speed:

5 kg * 2 m/s/s = 10 N

Notice that they both equal a force of 10 N. That's the point of the DE day.

So be patient and as jgriffith says, pump that light weight! :

P.S. Sorry for the boring physics stuff, I'm a nerd.

[beefcurry1]

exactly as i suspected. :confused:

no seriously, thats basically what i was thinking, minus all the physics. nice to see it all worked out mathematically though. :

[pbody]

Originally Posted by Tom_Drahos

Force (net) is equal to Mass * Acceleration.

So if you ignore the acceleration of gravity at this point, you can see it this way:

Tom, you really can't ignore gravity. It has a major effect on the force required to get those accelerations. For the 10kg weight, you need an additional 98 N to counter gravity, so 108 N to get 1 m/s/s acceleration. For the 5kg weight, you need only 49 N extra, so 59 N to get the 2 m/s/s acceleration. That's a far cry from the same force for twice the speed for half the mass.

If you were able to apply the same force to 2 different weights, you will of course end up with a higher acceleration for the lighter weight.The velocity vs time curve for the lighter weight is therefore on the left of the v vs t for the heavier weight. This means the power curve (power=force*velocity) for the lighter weight is on the left, i.e. you generate power faster with the lighter weight.

Maybe training DE with a lighter weight will help you move the power curve for a heavier weight to the left? It gives another angle to try and train for increased power output? Getting a heavy weight up to speed asap seems ideal for breaking through sticking points and helping you lock out.

[beefcurry1]

no wonder my totals are only what they are. to be a powerlifter i need to learn a lot more about physics. duh j/k

i could be wrong but i think he was just making a SIMPLIFIED answer.

[pbody]

Found an interestic article with plenty of purdy graphs http://www.sportsci.com/SPORTSCI/JAN...-V%20CURVE.htm
For muscles, force is inversely related to velocity. This means the faster you're moving, the lower the force you can produce. Look at the first set of graphs in the article, they give the Force-Velocity curve and how you can alter yours with either heavy weights at low speeds or light weights at high speeds.


The italics highlights the simplified conclusions :

Training at high weights and low speeds shifts this curve upwards, meaning you can get a heavier weight moving off your chest because you can apply more force from rest and defeat gravity.

Training at low weights and high speeds shifts this curve to the right, meaning you will be able to accelerate a given weight to a higher speed since the velocity where your force matches gravity (where you will no longer accelerate) is higher.


It stands to reason that DE training will let you get those heavy weights up to a higher speed, but it looks like it will do little for your initial acceleration of the bar (this may have been obvious ). I recall reading that more advanced lifters have higher bar speeds in competitions (so it's a good thing : ), though I can't seem to find the particular study.

I'm all for simplified answers, but when they lead to conclusions that aren't accurate, it's not good.

[TommyD]

I know I shouldn't ignore gravity, but it was just much easier to explain it minus the
-9.8 m/s/s.