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Old 19-Dec-07, 07:10 AM   #1
Maxgain
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Anyone have views


Considering the good debate we had on marriage previously. I wonder if anyone has any views on this.

What Do Muslims Want?
Priority problems.
by Raymond Ibrahim
National Review Online

All humans generally live according to some set of priorities. A person may make a priority of health, of pleasure, of study, of almost anything, really. But it is practically a law of nature that a person must make a priority of something. Even those who lead unstructured existences unconsciously live according to some set of unarticulated priorities, if only according to something so basic as the primal need for food, drink, and shelter.

For many people, religious practice — striving to obey God’s commandments — is a high priority, the highest, even. Yet this priority can come into conflict with the character of the society in which one lives. This is undoubtedly the case for devout Muslims who voluntarily relocate to Western nations. This invariably will compromise what many of them profess to be their ultimate priority: living in accordance to the divine laws of Allah (i.e., sharia — most of which is derived from the words and deeds of seventh-century Mohammad).

Some of these Muslims arrive in the West and don’t want to compromise. Consider some recent news stories:

A few Muslim cashiers working at Target stores in Minneapolis are refusing to scan customer purchases that may contain pork. Instead of swiping the products themselves — which is their job — they are inconveniently asking the customers or fellow employees to do it.

Muslim cab drivers have long discriminated against customers carrying or suspected of carrying alcohol. Officials at the St. Paul International Airport estimate that, on average, alcohol-bearing customers seeking cab rides are denied 77 times per month. Some blind customers have also been turned down on account of their seeing-eye dogs.

Muslims in Seattle have requested (and been granted) regularly scheduled hours for their exclusive use of public pools; an all-Muslim-girls basketball team at Chicago university demanded that men be barred from attending their matches; some 200 Muslim women signed a petition at a Michigan fitness center demanding separate workout times for men and women, or at least the erection of a screen divider between the men’s and women’s section (which was granted).

All of these issues revolve around the Muslim desire to live according to Allah’s laws — which, among other things, ban contact with pigs, dogs, and alcohol, and have rigid social guidelines, especially concerning interaction between the sexes. From a religious point of view, the anti-social behavior of these Muslims can be, if not excused, then certainly understood. They are doing only what their religion commands them to do. And their refusal to compromise on these points demonstrates that adherence to the commandments of Islam is a priority of the utmost importance to them.

However, if living in strict accordance to sharia is the first priority of some Muslims, one wonders: Why have they voluntarily come and immersed themselves in infidel countries that do not recognize sharia law and, indeed, allow many things that run counter to it, such as the selling and consumption of alcohol and pork and the liberal intermingling of the sexes? Most of the Muslim countries that Muslims abandon for the West are much more conducive to the Muslim lifestyle and uphold many if not all aspects of sharia law. Yet, each year, thousands of supposedly “ultra-devout” Muslims forsake these countries and, of their own free will, come to live among wine-imbibing, swine-eating libertines. Why?

It is for the same reason that everyone else comes to the West — for the “good life.” They come in order to be prosperous and to enjoy opportunities, security, and equality the likes of which they could never have in their own countries, where laws quite often follow the sharia. The vast majority of Muslims emigrating from the Islamic world do not leave due to necessity — say, oppression or starvation. No, they come to the infidel West solely to prosper materially.

But why are Muslims of the “ultra-pious” variety seeking after material comfort in the first place — especially when doing so will almost certainly undermine their professed desire to live strictly according to the sharia? Coming to live in a democratic country composed of some 300 million infidels is bound to affect any Muslim’s observance of sharia. These pious Muslims risk coming into daily contact with, not only pork, alcohol, and dogs, but all sorts of other defilements: flamboyant homosexuals, scantily clad women (who are often in positions of authority!), gamblers and usurers, to name a few. Are they not concerned that they, or especially their children, might become contaminated by the licentious and seductive practices of the infidel West? If their priority is truly to follow sharia, should they not remain in their Muslim countries of origin, which, if not as prosperous as the West, are definitely more conducive to the Muslim lifestyle?

Or, could it be that, despite all the ruckus (and subsequent headlines) made by these Muslims, living in accordance to Allah and his sharia is not their first priority, after all? At least, not to the degree that they would be unwilling to put this priority at substantial risk for the sake of living the good life, in a strictly secular and materialistic sense.

Furthermore, if common sense does not dissuade them from relocating to the West, the very sharia they claim to want to closely observe should. For instance, if pork and alcohol are condemned (Koran 5:4; 2:219), voluntarily living among infidels, idolaters, and atheists is looked on no better. The Koran declares: “O you who believe! Take neither Jews nor Christians as friends…whoever among you turns to them is one of them” (5:51).

There are countless verses and traditions, in fact, that make it clear that Muslims are to be in a constant state of animosity toward non-Muslims, waging war through tongue and teeth in order to spread Islam, and, when finally in a position of superiority, discriminating against those who refuse to convert (see, for example, 3:28, 5:73, 5:17, 9:5, 9:25, etc). When the Meccans persisted in their unbelief, refusing to accept the prophet-hood — and subsequent authority — of Mohammad, he finally abandoned his kinsfolk with these parting words, which some Muslims believe still define the proper relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims: “We [Muslims] disown you [non-Muslims] and what you worship besides Allah. We renounce you. Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us — until you believe in Allah alone!” (60:40).

So why are some Muslims making public scenes here in the United States over scanning bacon or transporting customers with sealed bottles of wine in their luggage while at the same time freely choosing to live with — and of course benefiting from — those whom they are commanded to hate and wage war upon, or at the very least, disavow and be clean of?

“Straining out a gnat while swallowing a camel” has long been a sure sign of hypocrisy. All Muslims who freely migrate to the West must understand that they can’t have it both ways — that they can’t have their cake and eat it, too. They must choose between either strictly upholding the laws and customs of 7th-century Arabia (in which case they should remain in their “sharia friendly” countries of origin) or, if prosperity and comfort is their first choice, let them relocate to the West, but prepare to assimilate — that is, compromise — to some degree. It’s a simple question of priorities.

Raymond Ibrahim is a research librarian at the Library of Congress.
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Old 19-Dec-07, 09:27 AM   #2
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Let me preface by saying I don't think a lot of religions make any sense. Never understood letting a decree from some holy figure or supernatural being dictate my actions.

Simply, I'm sick of how minorities (not even necessarily race or religion) get to dictate how majorities have to act. This is America, democracy and capitalism, get used to it or get out. It seems really odd to me that we had no problem slaughtering almost an entire race of people to claim this land, but now pander to any group that thinks they are being treated unfairly. I would've liked to go to my car insurance agency and say its bull**** that I was being discriminated against because I was a young white male with high rates, but I don't get to do that cause a majority of dangerous drivers are young white males. In the same respect, TSA should be allowed to discriminate against Muslims, since a majority of the people that crash planes into American buildings are Muslim.
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Old 19-Dec-07, 12:34 PM   #3
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if muslims have a problem scanning purchases containing pork, then they shouldn't work at target. if muslims have a problem with working out with the opposite sex, then don't go to that weight room. i have no problem with muslims living in accordance to allah, but hey.... they have to accept that the majority of the people in this society don't share their religious views and they are gonna face some inconveniences. thats just common sense. and if they don't like the inconveniences, then they should go back to where they came from.
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Old 19-Dec-07, 12:38 PM   #4
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This topic interests me, but I need to give it some thought before I start cyber-mouthing off like the way some people here do.

I will be back.
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Old 19-Dec-07, 07:11 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick View Post
Simply, I'm sick of how minorities (not even necessarily race or religion) get to dictate how majorities have to act. This is America, democracy and capitalism, get used to it or get out.
Amen to that. (No pun intended)
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Old 19-Dec-07, 11:51 PM   #6
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I think this is a Muslim hate article quite frankly.

In California, I'm used to reading trash like this about illegal immigrants which bigots incorrectly consider all people with dark skin are.

There will always be an audience for these kind of articles because bigotry is alive and well in America.
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Old 20-Dec-07, 12:26 AM   #7
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I think this is a Muslim hate article quite frankly.

In California, I'm used to reading trash like this about illegal immigrants which bigots incorrectly consider all people with dark skin are.

There will always be an audience for these kind of articles because bigotry is alive and well in America.
Why do you think Muslims come to this country then? Would just as many muslims continue to come here if the US govt clamped down on bending over backwards and taking it up the tailpipe for every minority?

I think an interesting point to note would be the following (on immigrants):

Those immigrants that came here 100 years ago are vastly different than those that come here now. 100 years ago, people came here to make the USA their home. Today, immigrants come to exploit the country. Today's immigrants do not choose to assimilate, while 100 years ago that's precisely what immigrants did.

It is interesting when you compare/contrast immigrants of yesterday and today.

And I do agree on what Mav said about the TSA and muslims. I mean, duh. It's common sense. If purple headed monstors were blowing up airplanes, I'd think the TSA should flag those purple headed monsters...don't you?
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Old 20-Dec-07, 02:59 AM   #8
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I teach high school. The children of immigrants are assimilating very well, making this their home, and very obviously being more of our culture than their parents' culture. They are not going back to the old ways. When these children are adults and have their own children, that third generation will pretty much have lost all their grand-parents' culture except for maybe some food around holidays.

This post is not a post on the immigrant issue. That is another problem that needs to be addressed, and solved, without the extreme talk on either side. This post is just about my 26 years of observation in my profession.
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Old 20-Dec-07, 08:25 AM   #9
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I teach high school. The children of immigrants are assimilating very well, making this their home, and very obviously being more of our culture than their parents' culture. They are not going back to the old ways. When these children are adults and have their own children, that third generation will pretty much have lost all their grand-parents' culture except for maybe some food around holidays.

This post is not a post on the immigrant issue. That is another problem that needs to be addressed, and solved, without the extreme talk on either side. This post is just about my 26 years of observation in my profession.

In response to your 26 years of profession, I haven't been to school for quite as long, but I was there for 12 years plus 7 in college, so I have 19 years to see what I have seen. I went to a private school until 4th grade, and never remember seeing an arabic student (but that was a long time ago, probalby wouldn't have known what that was, but still can't think of any). From 5th through 12 I was in a public predominatly white neighborhood, only remembering the occasional person that didnt speak english well (I dont' remember them being pushed to learn the language even).

But in college, since I went to a Technological University for Engineering, you can imagine how many minorities there were (the Caucasions were the minority at this school actually). Hmm it sure didn't seem like they were assimilating. And now that I have a g/f that lives in Dearborn, Michigan, which is the biggest Arabic population in the country, there isn't too many trying to assimilate over there. Their schools have twice the holidays off since the arabic population is so high. The district gives every Arabic Holiday plus every Christian Holiday off. To me this is assisnine. We're in America.
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Old 20-Dec-07, 09:05 AM   #10
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If you are a citizen/immigrant of a country, you should be playing by its rules, pure and simple. No one's saying you can't celebrate your own culture and religion, but you can't do it at the expense and liberties of the country YOU'VE CHOSEN. If I moved to a predominantly Muslim country and wanted to make my famous pork tenderloin with sweet bourbon marinade for my teddy bear, Mohammed (everyone hear about that story?), I'd expect some issues. Muslims (or any other religion or ethnicity) should expect the same issues if they choose to ignore the few things we hold sacred in America, and one thing in particular, personal freedom. Start trying to dictate the way a person must act, run their business, behave, etc... and you've got one miserable American.
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Old 20-Dec-07, 11:03 AM   #11
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I have nobody to blame but my own US Government, Maverick. We can't blame the immigrants. If we bend over a little for them, they want more, and more and more. This sorta continues from the gay peeps conversation. I hold my own Government responsible for permitting it.
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Old 20-Dec-07, 12:07 PM   #12
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I hold my own Government responsible for permitting it.
How are you doing this?
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Old 20-Dec-07, 06:01 PM   #13
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our government wasn't put in here to permit or not permit things. anyway, this situation is not about that. its the fact that just because muslims want those things, doesn't mean anyone else is obligated to satisfy their requests. if they feel that the way we do business here in america prevents them from practicing their religion, they should go somewhere else. institutions are free as well as citizens, and are therefore not required to pander to every single faction of society.
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Old 20-Dec-07, 08:19 PM   #14
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How are you doing this?
By saying "i hold my govt responsible" lol. I'm not what you'd call an activist. I generally complain on forums and such, but that's about it.

If I could get away with it, I'd quit paying my taxes. That'd be cool wouldn't it? Like, if the government wasn't doing its job, we could withold our tax money?
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Old 20-Dec-07, 08:20 PM   #15
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our government wasn't put in here to permit or not permit things. anyway, this situation is not about that. its the fact that just because muslims want those things, doesn't mean anyone else is obligated to satisfy their requests. if they feel that the way we do business here in america prevents them from practicing their religion, they should go somewhere else. institutions are free as well as citizens, and are therefore not required to pander to every single faction of society.
But why go somewhere else when you can raise a stink, get your way, and live a safer and far superior life than where they're from? What's the incentive to not come here? This is why I hold my own govt responsible.
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