The real estate melt-down

[LiftGirl]

Originally Posted by MAURER

the fact is, banks don't run on ethics. they run on profit. while it may be unethical to default on a loan, it is also unethical to give a loan to someone you think may not be able to pay it.

Sure it's unethical (and not smart business) to give someone a loan they don't have much chance of repaying. Obviously, they don't do this as much as we think or they wouldn't be making money.

All I'm saying is that since there will always be unscrupulous lenders, it's your job to do the research and figure out 1)if you can repay the loan and 2)if your mortgage company/bank is reputable.

And walking away when you could pay but just don't want to is shady no matter how you slice it. How was the bank supposed to know you'd decide to walk away even if you can afford it but just don't want to, like Mr P's client?

[MAURER]

hey i agree with you if you read my first post i am really big on personal responsability. i personally don't think there shold be tax credits and all these laws that support home ownership cuz all they do is make people try to live beyond their means. i just think its naive for anyone to think that people are going to act responsably and its the bank and anyone else's responsability to plan accordingly.

[Rufiedodg]

Originally Posted by MAURER

i don't think anyone asked for your expert analysis of firehawk's character.

You're absolutely right.

Totally irresponsible of me to put Firehawk on the spot like I did.


I can only hope he excepts my apology.

Dan

Dan, I thought your post was very insightful, instructive and relevant to the thread topic. And you delivered it in a kind and compassionate kind of way.

Your self-help library collection must be vast. Enjoy your Maui vacation and remember, while there, to eat your age and not your APPETITE!

[CF-OC_gal]

I can't believe this discussion from the people in the "land of the free and the home of the brave".

You have the greatest freedoms in the whole modern world and people here are actually blaming others for the choices they can and do make? Be thankful you have options and take responsibility for your decisions.

(I'm on Rufiedog's side.)

[.V.]

Originally Posted by CF-OC_gal

Be thankful you have options and take responsibility for your decisions.

Right on.

People should not take loans the cannot afford. Lenders giving loans with no hope of repayment? I doubt it. If they don't think you can repay them...they aren't loaning you the money. Lenders don't want your house, your car, or anything else you've got. They want their money back with some of yours. That's why they are in business.

It is YOUR responsibility to make sure you can actually afford something, not be shady when you fill out your loan application to look financially better off than you really are. If you can't pay...they will take...and sell for what they can get...suing you for the difference. Some states have laws to let unscrupulous buyers get a better deal...but that's a crock. If you can't afford it...don't buy it.

Once upon a time I could borrow up to 250K just on my signature with no collateral. After my wife's 11 year illness I can now borrow exactly nothing. Why? Because I can't afford it. Sure I could put property up for collateral, I could put homes up for collateral. But by myself, on a county paramedic salary, with no time for extra work and a young child to raise...I couldn't repay anything more than I'm paying now. And that would put me in the same class as those that don't want to repay their debts. Only 25K left to pay off and some losses to recoup then I'll be back where I was...until then...I'm buying nothing.

But go ahead, keep crapping on lenders, keep destroying credit, keep doing the wrong thing. Then when I'm back...you can rent your house from me. Because when people do this and drive property values down and I can afford it without having to miss meals to repay it, I will buy it at the reduced price it goes for at auction.

And why is it my karma to get to do that? Because I pay what I owe, I don't crap on lenders, and I try to always do the right thing.

Remember the rule that existed before Abraham, before Issac, before Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, "do ye as ye will, but do harm to none." If you do the right thing, then good things will happen to you. If you do wrong, it will bite you in the ass.

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by luke.w

I got a deal on my house (private mortgage) but I also was about the only person out of all my peers who worked full 12hour days mon-fri. and hardly ever had a social life (I did drink on weekends) but all my peers went out everynight, and they all needed roommates to afford an apartment or house, we did the smart thing firehawk reguardless of whether we dodged the mortgage increase or not, right now I really don't even make whats considered great money, however I can live comfortly paying 2-mortages (one is slightly lower due to "luck"), and still save with all the increases, when gas goes up everything goes up.

I guess I'll take a side and say I disagree with your second statement, as that attitude just adds to all the problems IMO, however I could be wrong?

I also got a good deal on the house, except once they reassessed like they do all new buyers, my property taxes went from 2800 to 4300 a year (how is this not wrong again?)

I was one of those that bought a house when the interest rates were at an all time low (guess i'll not bea ble to look myself in the mirror because i took advantage of that). I also did put 20% down though, so didnt' finance it 100%.

I think that doctor who decided not to walk away from the house likely did it because of other ramifications rather than "well he wouldn't be able to look himself in the mirror tonight". It's likely he realized the credit implications, on top of the fact that even if he lost some money on the house, he still wasn't going to take a big hit, and that he's a DOCTOR, which means he aint gonna starve anyway.

Businesses have no problems telling you to F off in a PC way, so I have no problems telling them the same. It may contribute to the problem, but me not 'fighting back' isn't making things better for me.

Firehawk, the mirror doesn't lie, both when we check ourselves out to assess the physique fruit of our fitness labor, and when we size up how honorable we are. Only an honest man can look himself in the eye and feel good about himself (ladies included), and the real standards of honesty are greater than the law of the land.

Those who go around carrying a monkey on their back of being a financial whimp, a crook, a sleaze, a punk, a sissy (call it what you want) find that it eventually catches up with them and will lead them down a destructive path of failed marriages and other relationships, career shortcomings, shoulda-woulda, coulda behavior, addictions, despair, etc., etc., etc.

Don't believe me, try it and find out for yourself.

[MAURER]

well.... thats a good point.

[Firehawk]

Originally Posted by pierini

Firehawk, the mirror doesn't lie, both when we check ourselves out to assess the physique fruit of our fitness labor, and when we size up how honorable we are. Only an honest man can look himself in the eye and feel good about himself (ladies included), and the real standards of honesty are greater than the law of the land.

Those who go around carrying a monkey on their back of being a financial whimp, a crook, a sleaze, a punk, a sissy (call it what you want) find that it eventually catches up with them and will lead them down a destructive path of failed marriages and other relationships, career shortcomings, shoulda-woulda, coulda behavior, addictions, despair, etc., etc., etc.

Don't believe me, try it and find out for yourself.

It's only a monkey on your back if you see it that way. Tough for an honest man to make it big in this world dude. And yes, that implies that just about anyone that has made it big, probably cut a corner somewhere at some point.

[Dan C]

I'm big on character, honesty and integrity. But for some reason I just don't see the move in question as making one a financial wimp, a crook or whatever. Is it ethically questionable - maybe, but saying it leads to failed marriages and addictions is a bit of a stretch.

I think for me it has something to do with the big businesses not having a "real" person behind it. I would never borrow money from someone and not repay it if I could; and if I couldn't pay, I'd at least give them something of equal value... like my house for a mortgage payment...

[LiftGirl]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

It's only a monkey on your back if you see it that way. Tough for an honest man to make it big in this world dude. And yes, that implies that just about anyone that has made it big, probably cut a corner somewhere at some point.

So it's ok to steal, since it's easier? And yes, walking out on your mortgage is, IMO, stealing from the bank that lent you the money.

Originally Posted by Dan C

I'm big on character, honesty and integrity. But for some reason I just don't see the move in question as making one a financial wimp, a crook or whatever. Is it ethically questionable - maybe, but saying it leads to failed marriages and addictions is a bit of a stretch.

I agree Dan; it was not my intention to suggest that specific move does, but rather it is those actions in our lives and choices we make repeatedly that are not of the highest character and standards of honesty and integrity.

Definitely we have a difference of opinion and that's great. I appreciate the smoothness with which you expressed yourself in pointing your opinion out. I have read you a little rougher at other times. Must be my age and that your parents taught you to respect your elders. Attaman!!

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by pierini

Again, I'm not talking about the situation where a default happens due to a loss of a job or income that can't be replaced, catastrophic medical expenses or other unforseen economic events that clearly makes one incapable of honoring a debt. I have empathy for people in that situation.

In those circumstances, - 2 things:

1) Would your advice be any different?

2) Would the effects and repercussions be any different (such as how it affects your credit)?


Is the end result the same to the person doing the bailing, regardless of the circumstances? Is there any motivation for them to keep paying on something they cannot afford? I'd assume something must have happened if they (or your doctor friend) were able to afford the payments for X-Amount of time, and now they can't. There must be a reason.....should that be taken into consideration?

[Merrida]

Originally Posted by Dan C

I think I remember someone here in particular stating, "I refuse to pay for music" or something along those lines.

That's another thing,...stealing intellectual property. How about people justifying free music downloads. Is that any different, and could that ever be controlled? Granted we don't have Napster anymore, but in it's stead we have 99-cent downloads (for those who want to stay above board).

What's up with people not wanting to pay for music? It isn't like we're talking about a $700k investment,....a CD is chump change.

Dan, what's your thought about friends who own CD's offering to share them among themselves so they, and their friends, can burn their own CD's?