USA's Health Care vs Universal Health Care

[Firehawk]

Thoughts? I'd really like to see what the Canadians on the board have to say about their NHS health care. I'd like to see what Americans think about going to a similar type health coverage, concerns, comments?

I'm undecided, although i just know if things continue to go the way they are, only the upper class will be able to afford Health Coverage.

[.V.]

This is a tough one for me. I can go either way in this discussion and both sides are right.

Frankly, we as a nation cannot afford it. I'm only vaguely familiar with the Canadian system from talking to some docs from up there who I know that came down here to work. They don't like the socialized medicine because it overloads the system. People go to the doctor for every little sniffle when they really don't need to. People abuse the system. Wait times in the Emergency Departements are prohibitively long due to this abuse. They even had to make a law that people with chest pain had to be seen within 6 hours. A 6 hour wait with a heart attack? You will die before you are seen. This is ridiculous.

However, in the US there are long waits at Emergency departments too. Because of the people who this is their only health care option because they cannot afford a doctor or don't have insurance. This is also a problem. And I don't want to hear that no one is turned away in the US just because they can't afford it. This is the case at emergency depts, but not so with physician offices and many clinics.

During my wife's long illness when our expenses had exceeded one million for her healthcare, my insurance had paid all they were going to pay. My part had been $200,000.00 plus the out of pocket copay for her medications. Suddenly, she was uninsured and uninsurable. After that I had to start using the $800.00/month I was paying to insure her and use that to pay doctors, hospitals, and buy medications. I was able to pay it because I worked a lot. There are many people, especially here in Appalachia who don't make much more than that $800.00/month And yes, people do die because they can't afford healthcare. This should not be happening.

Then the Libertarian in me says that well, they should do better. We should make it on our own, not expect the nanny state to care for us from cradle to grave. And again, I don't want to hear the excuses of, "well, they didn't have the opportunities you had." Because my opportunities were simple. On my own at age 16. Worked a full time manual labor job and a part time job to afford a car. Then to go to school. Then switched to a full time night job as a nursing assistant in a nursing home so I could go to school full time during the day. So the self improvement thing goes back to the old question that's been asked about diet and exercise so many times here at DF..."how bad do you want it?"

This is after all one very tricky issue with valid points on both sides.

[Firehawk]

Yeah, both sides you could make a case. Although I will say, if you go to an ER and complain with chest pain or can't breath, or your heart is doing something weird, they take you immediately no matter how long the wait. At least that's been my experience with my heart problems.

Has anyone seen "Sicko"? Moore portrays Universal Health Care to be completely opposite of what you said Andy about the long wait times and doctors wanting to come to the States, but of course, he's heavily left wing and is of course going to portray what he wants.

[MAURER]

i think that universal healthcare is a nice ideal to have but that in reality the system works better if you get what you pay for.

[EliteLift]

Originally Posted by .V.

Frankly, we as a nation cannot afford it. I'm only vaguely familiar with the Canadian system from talking to some docs from up there who I know that came down here to work. They don't like the socialized medicine because it overloads the system. People go to the doctor for every little sniffle when they really don't need to. People abuse the system. Wait times in the Emergency Departements are prohibitively long due to this abuse. They even had to make a law that people with chest pain had to be seen within 6 hours. A 6 hour wait with a heart attack? You will die before you are seen. This is ridiculous.

I don't know where you getting all that from. I have never waited 6hours in emergency. I'v never waited 3.. and believe me if you suspect a heart attack you are going to get straight in. when my dad had his aneurysm he was on a plane flying to vancouver where surgens were waiting to get him asap. I have never paid more than a few dollars for any perscription.

my friends dad who happens to be a family Doc gets paid nearly 200.000 a year, so its not like doctors aren't getting paid enough because of a socialized medicine.

If you want the truth on socialized medicine, watch michael moore's film "sicko"

[.V.]

Originally Posted by EliteLift

I don't know where you getting all that from. I have never waited 6hours in emergency. I'v never waited 3.. and believe me if you suspect a heart attack you are going to get straight in. when my dad had his aneurysm he was on a plane flying to vancouver where surgens were waiting to get him asap. I have never paid more than a few dollars for any perscription.

my friends dad who happens to be a family Doc gets paid nearly 200.000 a year, so its not like doctors aren't getting paid enough because of a socialized medicine.

If you want the truth on socialized medicine, watch michael moore's film "sicko"

I've seen sicko. Biggest crock I've ever watched. I watch everything that Michael Moore does to keep up with what the lunatic fringe is up to. I'm on both sides with this issue and agree with parts of the arguments both make.

Where did I get my information from? From physicians who have left Canada to work in the US because they were so disgusted with the health care system there. From news reports, and from my Canadian friends. I'm so glad you didn't have to wait in the ER. One really shouldn't have to. But when they are overloaded there will be a wait time. Even in the US, even though serious trauma and chest pain is moved to the head of the line...if there is only one ER bed available for that because the others are full and there are 6 people waiting with the same complaint...there will be a delay.

[EliteLift]

Originally Posted by .V.

Where did I get my information from? From physicians who have left Canada to work in the US because they were so disgusted with the health care system there. From news reports, and from my Canadian friends.

and what were these doctors so disgusted about?
whats so disgusting about socialized medicine that made them so much better off in the US?

I have seen my local hospital during peak hours many times over the years and one is generally not in there more than two hours during their most hecktic hours. I have not once heard somone complian they were waiting in emergency for 6hours to be seen, hell even if that were true, its way better than dieing for monotary reasons..

[Firehawk]

I do think the movie Sicko brought to light alot of good information. I think Michael Moore should be taken with a grain of salt though when you start talking opinions. The guy clearly is heavily biased. But, in this movie I did like what he tried to bring to light. I think he made good arguments, and I was hoping to get some good canadian responses in here because those are the ones that get universal health care. I have never been in contact with a system like that so I wouldn't know how they really are run. I have also heard of stories though from Canadians about sh*tty wait times and the nurses being jerks to you, but dont' we get that in the states anyways? lol

We need to move in the direction like it was when I was born and make us all aware of how much medical care costs and more responsible for those costs.

I talked to my Dad and asked him how the hospital and doctors costs of my birth was handled when I was born 52 years ago. My Dad was a cab driver and my Mom was a homemaker and they didn't have health insurance. My Dad said he had to save his money for a couple of months to pay all the costs, but it wasn't that bad he said. I can't imagine a modern day couple with this economic profile being able to pay the cost of a maternity delivery if they didn't have insurance.

Most Americans do not even know the cost of the medical care they receive, don't directly pay for it, and thus we don't have consumerism to provide the balance needed to keep medical care costs in check.

So I believe a national health insurance plan for America is a bad idea. We need to go in the other direction.

I pay $758 a month for health insurance and it is constantly going up. It really shot up big time when I hit the big 50. If there was a national health insurance plan, maybe I would pay $0 directly but I guarantee you I would pay more taxes because there is no such thing as a free lunch and somebody has got to do the paying.

[MAURER]

yeah plus you'd be paying for the lazy, unmotivated snack bar managers of the world like my boss last summer...

[EliteLift]

Originally Posted by MAURER

yeah plus you'd be paying for the lazy, unmotivated snack bar managers of the world like my boss last summer...

you may also pay for hard working individuals that have been injured or diagnosed with MS or cancer and are unable to work (possibly with familys to support).

in the end it could be you. no matter how hard working you are.

[Maxgain]

In Ireland we have public free health care or the choice for insurance.

Whats the difference? about 9 months versus a few days for any serious procedure.

A&E is the public sector The health Service is now proud mosst patients get seen within 16 hours. There have been cases of old people in serious pain and at risk of death on trollies for 3 days before been seen.

Anybody that can afford it is absolutely mental nor to take out insurance.

[Firehawk]

Talked to a canadian friend last night about health care. He said he doesn't wait too long in ER's, depending how busy it is (alot like here), and all serious cases get moved to the head of the line (heart trouble, breathing, etc). He said life threatening surgeries are not a long wait, but any elective surgery is. Also alot like here I'd say.

Talking about medical costs, do costs REALLY need to be as high as they are? Why? Where is the check and balance to keep costs reasonable? It really doesn't sound like there is any. I can go see my family doctor, spend all of 3 minutes with them, and get charged 407 dollars for a visit. I have what would be considered a competitive health coverage plan from my employer, but at the start of 2007 I had to pay a ton more out of my pocket than ever before. I now pay 20$ copays, 100$ copays if I go to the ER, and a 1200$ fee or 10% of any surgery, whichever is less (cap out at 1200).

Last year I was sent a bill for a couple hundred bucks because the insurance only would cover a doctor up to a certain amount, saying that it was an unreasonable charge, and any money beyond that value was passed onto the consumer. So it sounds to me that doctors can name their price, with the only check and balance coming from the insurance company, which doesn't bode well for the injured party.

I think the thought of this change was to make people realize how much things cost and not to abuse the system, when it really has had the opposite effect I think. People don't go in to get treated for fear of oweing alot of money, then they get worse and only go when they REALLY need fixing, which ends up costing more. I don't think this is the answer, but I have no solution to the problem either. Making people pay more and more out of pocket is ridiculous. That will eventually lead to the middle class not being able to afford health coverage, and thus the only people that get covered are the wealthy. How does that make sense?

Ever notice how medical stuff that people don't really have coverage for, or not nearly the coverage for, such as eye care and dental care, don't really cost that much in comparison? I mean, this is a compelling argument to get rid of health coverage completely and make it ALL out of pocket. You could do that, sure, but would all medical costs come down to a reasonable level? I might be for something like that if medical care was at a reasonable price, not 900 dollars for a physical. But of course there would have to be something that covers people who can't afford even dental work or eye exams.

[LiftGirl]

Originally Posted by Firehawk

this is a compelling argument to get rid of health coverage completely and make it ALL out of pocket. You could do that, sure, but would all medical costs come down to a reasonable level?

Let's say someone gets, let's say breast cancer. Their doctor decides that herceptin is the best treatment. Since it's a monoclonal antibody, there's no way at all to manufacture it cheaply on the scale necessary for cancer treatment. (I know this because I work in an immunology lab, and my job is to produce monoclonal antibodies for research use. We are not doing it on an industrial scale, but I can tell you it's not cheap.) A typical dose is $10,000 to $15,000 dollars. They may need 5 or 6 doses. How in the world can anyone pay for that out of pocket?

The fact is, the best treatments cost money. Mostly this is due to the cost of researching that new treatment. (Again, as a lab tech, I can tell you that research is incredibly, incredibly expensive.) If you want the good treatments, somebody's gotta pay.

The reason we have health insurance is to spread the risk out over many people. For example, my cancer example above could easily need thousands of dollars worth of treatment. But for every person like that, there's someone who won't need much or any treatment.

I kind of agree with what you're saying for the most part, FH. I think most routine costs, like physicals and vaccinations, should be made cheap enough that the average Joe can just pay for them out of pocket, and insurance should be reserved for catastrophic events, like a car accident or cancer. I just don't know if that can work, though, because of the principle of spreading risk out. I think Bush is trying to move toward that system by encouraging healthy people to buy high deductible insurance and use HSAs to pay the deductibles.

What we really need to do is get health care not tied to employment. That's hard for me to say, because, as an employee of the State of Illinois, I get a really nice insurance plan that I don't pay much for. But a few years ago, my uncle, who lives in Indiana, wanted to become self-employed. The problem is that he is uninsurable because he has Crohn's disease. Indiana has public insurance, so he was able to go on that, but not all states have that available. If he lived in another state, he likely wouldn't have been able to leave his job.

[ajarvis]

I'm in Calgary, Alberta and while I haven't been to the ER here a walk in clinic is a min. 1.5 - 2 hr wait. No matter what time I get there. If I'm there when it opens it's still usually 1.5 hrs. I've waited over 3 before on more than one occasion. Now Alberta is a bit different than the rest of the country as we not only pay federally for health care through my taxes, but on top of that I pay provincially every month too. Also we have the option of paying for a number of procedures without waiting - as if I could afford that lol. If it wasn't for my son I wouldn't be paying monthly as I'd just say no, but the ridiculous part is here in AB even though I pay federally through my taxes if I don't pay their monthly fee then I'd have to pay per visit wish is BS! Considering it is my right as a canadian citizen to health care. For myself the only time I even use the system is when I'm getting Birth Control, and when I was pregnant with my son. The rest of the time I never go to the doctor!

All that aside though I'll take our healthcare system over the US one. I talked to alot of people on different baby boards and can't get over how much it costs to just have a child in the states, never mind if you have a serious illness like cancer or something! While we do have long waiting lists for some things overall I like the fact that it doesn't matter what you can afford or not everyone is equal in regards to healthcare - well in theory. Here in AB you can pay to have some of your own procedures like MRI etc. thats controversial with the rest of the country though. Before I moved back out here the premiere was boasting about Alberta's healthcare and claiming even though you have to pay a bit more for it it's that much better etc. when in reality it's not. In ON I had the same if not shorter wait times.