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Old 31-Oct-04, 07:39 PM   #1
D'Antony
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Cla


Hello everyone..

I was thinking about dropping hydroxycut and switching to CLA. The only thing I know about CLA is that is helps with fat loss.
My questions are: Is it effective? Does it give you energy? Has anyone tried CLA before?
Basically I just want to know more about the product before I buy it.
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Old 31-Oct-04, 07:48 PM   #2
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The cost to benefit ratio is *extremely* poor (alot of people readily attribute their increased fat loss progress with said thermogenic rather than improved physical activity and/ or nutrition. I paid £30 - approx. $45-50 - for a month's supply of CLA years ago. "Must use alongside exercise and a good diet".), as with all of these thermogenics such as Xenadrine (especially if you live in Britain where the active "ingredient" - ephedrine - is banned. Ban may also apply Stateside now aswell).

If a product "helps" metabolise an additional few grams of adipose tissue per week then I'm sure it can readily be classed as having thermogenic properties.

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Old 31-Oct-04, 07:52 PM   #3
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oh yeah, I only use hydroxycut in conjunction with my cardio routine..and sometimes I take it before my weight training session. Yeah ephedra is banned here in the states. I never use thermogenics with ephedra. But was wondering about CLA before I buy it. Don't want to waste my money on anything that's too good to be true.
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Old 31-Oct-04, 08:15 PM   #4
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You'd be better off not wasting your money. Most of the reviews i've read aren't that great on CLA. You'd get better results out of L-carnitine than CLA.
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Old 03-Nov-04, 05:45 AM   #5
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B. COMMON USES IN COMPLEMENTARY AND ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is a controversial dietary component. CLA was originally isolated from grilled ground beef and shown to be an effective inhibitor of benzo(a)yrene-initiated mouse epidermal neoplasia. Several claims have been made for the application of CLA supplementation, including weight management, diabetes, cardiovascular disease prevention, and cancer treatment. Many of these claims are based on animal models which may or may not have predictive value when applied to human physiology. Evidence available from human studies is currently limited and the data that is available is contradictory. This could partly be due to CLA existing as a heterogeneous compound composed of several isomers of linoleic acid. Different CLA isomers appear to produce different effects. Based on animal models, for example, the trans-10,cis-12 isomer may have a greater effect on lipid metabolism and body composition while the cis-9,trans 11 isomer may be more useful in areas involving growth and the immune system. These parameters have yet to be clearly elucidated, making clinical application of CLA difficult. It should also be noted that the data available from animal studies is not uniformly positive. Despite being advocated in the use of diabetes, the generation of insulin-resistant states, hepatomegaly, and lipodystrophy have been observed in some animal experimental models. Since a mechanism of action is not currently available for CLA, it is impossible to predict the long- term effects of CLA supplementation. Due to conflicting research data on its efficacy, scarcity of human studies to guide clinical use, and the availability of better researched alternatives, complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) practitioners have been slow to adopt the use of CLA. Especially problematic is that, unlike other dietary components such as omega-3 fatty acids, increasing consumption of normal dietary sources of CLA cannot be advocated since this would entail an increase in saturated fat, cholesterol, and trans-fatty acids. In addition, CAM practitioners have a number of better researched alternatives for each of the conditions allegedly improved by CLA, including chromium for diabetes, exercise for weight management, omega-3 fatty acids for cardiovascular disease, and a variety of antioxidants for use in the prevention and treatment of cancer. Current CAM utilization of CLA appears to be focused principally in the areas of cancer treatment and weight management. Based on the currently available research, clinicians should be selective in their use of CLA, and should consider withholding it from the following populations until safety has been demonstrated: obese patients in the high- risk cardiovascular disease category, patients with liver disease, and individuals with either insulin resistance or type 2 diabetes. It may be sensible to monitor liver enzymes and glycemic indices in patients on CLA supplementation.
C. TOUTED USES: Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) has been touted useful as an antiatherogenic, anticancer, antioxidant, and lipolytic agent for weight and diabetes management. Research has shown contradictory results for these effects.

BASICALLY THERE IS NOTHING TO PROVE THAT IT IS EFFECTIVE YET.
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Old 03-Nov-04, 02:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxgain
BASICALLY THERE IS NOTHING TO PROVE THAT IT IS EFFECTIVE YET.
Really? http://www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb...t.asp?rrID=322

http://www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb...t.asp?rrID=328
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Old 03-Nov-04, 03:30 PM   #7
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I am not trying to start shi* here. Far from it honestly but, the articles that you often reply with are always AST affiliated. I know you like max-ot but that doesn't make everything they say correct. I would imagine that most of their 'science' derives from a push to sell their products.
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Old 03-Nov-04, 08:13 PM   #8
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Here's another bit of info
http://www.bulknutrition.com/i28_CLA.html

yes its another "store" like AST but the research here is quite sound (look at the references)

an excellent supplement from most of what ive read. never used it myself so i cannot truly vouch for it.
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Old 04-Nov-04, 03:37 AM   #9
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currently using CLA with another thermogenic (tyroxsyn- which is caffeine, guarana, etc) started today so not much to say yet, see after a month hey!
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Old 04-Nov-04, 10:52 AM   #10
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I'm not saying CLA doesn't work, maybe it does. I just find that it's always good to have more than one reference source. Either way, not trying to make a big deal out of it.
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Old 04-Nov-04, 03:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lift2Live
I am not trying to start shi* here. Far from it honestly but, the articles that you often reply with are always AST affiliated. I know you like max-ot but that doesn't make everything they say correct. I would imagine that most of their 'science' derives from a push to sell their products.
I understand that you are not trying to start sh!t, for sure, no worries.

But I just want to say that I do turn to the information provided on the AST site because they do offer research and studies done in various areas of training, nutrition, etc. They have a question and answer section which makes it easy to find things, that is primarily why I use AST's website to locate information. The studies that are presented in the articles I posted are studies done by other research companies/organizations, not AST, so it is not biased information given here. AST is showing you the study done BY OTHERS that is all. The first article I posted contained the presented research done by the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition ..and this was done in 2004.

The second article contained another study with a reference of "J. Nutr. 133:3041-3046, 2003". So, I don't see how these reference are "affiliated" with AST, moreso, AST presents articles with findings completed by reputable research organizations, with references to each study posted at the bottom of those articles. They are promoting CLA and showing you the benefits of it, but that does not force you to go out and buy AST's CLA...they are showing you the benefits of CLA in general. Of course they are going to show a picture of their own brand of CLA, but who isn't if your a company trying to sell a product. Anyone would do the same. But that does not mean they have a gun to your head forcing you to buy their brand.

Yes, I follow Max OT, but I don't personally use their products. I look to their site for information because they provide A LOT of information to begin with, with in depth answers that make sense, whether there is a product being promoted/talked about/involved or not.

And I honestly think if AST was into "pushing" their products upon people, they would join Muscle Tech and all the other BULLSH!T companies out there who smother every third page of FLEX, Muscle & Fitness and Muscular Development with 20 page ads on how they've transformed every pro bodybuilder out there with Before and after photos. So man, I honestly think what little promoting AST does on their site and in a few natural bodybuilding mags is NOT a direct intention to ram their products down people's throat, but just plain advertising at best which all companies must do in order to sell their stuff, that is a given. Most people have never heard of AST's products unless they've visited the AST website.

PS: And NO, I don't work for AST....lol!
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Last edited by Todd; 04-Nov-04 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 04-Nov-04, 05:08 PM   #12
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Fair enough on all points. If AST is using outside sources as well as inside research then hey, it seems like they could be a good resource. The only reason I brought it up was due to the fact that the supplement industry on the whole, is a bunch of snake oil salesmen. I am just usually quite gun shy of ANY company that sells supps and also provides research. Usually though that research is done in their own labs done for their own supps and are biased. Again, if AST is using outside sources also then it makes them more credible. Either way, glad you didn't take it personally. I wasn't calling you out. lol
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Old 04-Nov-04, 05:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lift2Live
Fair enough on all points. If AST is using outside sources as well as inside research then hey, it seems like they could be a good resource. The only reason I brought it up was due to the fact that the supplement industry on the whole, is a bunch of snake oil salesmen. I am just usually quite gun shy of ANY company that sells supps and also provides research. Usually though that research is done in their own labs done for their own supps and are biased. Again, if AST is using outside sources also then it makes them more credible. Either way, glad you didn't take it personally. I wasn't calling you out. lol
Oh hey, I agree totally....most supplement companies are in the business for one reason, to take your hard earned cash. It's a multi-billion dollar business for those people and it's one of the biggest scams around. So yah, I am always leary too. The claims that the supplement companies make are just rediculous.

Oh no, I definitely did not take it personally or think you were calling me out on anything, I feel the same as you when it comes to supplement companies and making sure we are getting what they claim to be gettin in our supps. I think it is always a good idea to research products and find solid sources that show reasonable studies before purchasing any supplement.
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Old 05-Nov-04, 08:40 AM   #14
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The studies i looked at for cla were for healthy individuals ie no weight problem. I have further educated myself now and have to agree it can be very beneficial at the moment i would limit that to overweight people till i see more. Here are some studies that did not come from ast or max ot or some other supplement site

summary - as i know it can be tedious reading through all them studies

- Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) reduced body
fat and changed fatty acid metabolism in
some human studies but had no effect in
others

- CLA reduced leptin levels in one human study

- CLA reduced body fat, increased lean body
mass, improved glucose tolerance, and
upregulated uncoupling protein-2 in mice and
rats

- CLA increased apoptosis and reduced fatty acid
composition of white adipose tissue and
reduced adipocyte cell size in rats


Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) 0.7 grams daily for 4 weeks followed by 1.4 grams daily for 4 weeks reduced body fat percentages in 21 adult male and female volunteers. Volunteers consumed a controlled diet (no significant differences in energy or macronutrient intake). A significant reduction in high-density lipoprotein was observed during the first 4 weeks compared to placebo (p less than 0.001). A significant decrease in the sum of thickness of ten skinfold measurements and percentage body fat and fat mass (calculated from skinfold measurements) was observed during the second 4 weeks compared to placebo (p less than 0.001). A nonsignificant trend toward lower triglycerides and total cholesterol was observed with CLA. CLA was incorporated into serum total lipids at all CLA doses (Mougios et al, 2001).
b. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) significantly reduced sagittal abdominal diameter (SAD) as compared with placebo in a double- blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study of 24 obese men. Twenty-five obese men (39 to 64 years old) with a waist-to-hip ratio of 1.05 and a body mass index 32 kilograms/meter squared were enrolled in the study; one subject did not complete the study. Subjects received 4.2 grams CLA daily or placebo (olive oil). After four weeks of supplementation, a significant reduction in abdominal adipose tissue was seen in the subjects treated with CLA (p = 0.041). Other measurements of anthropometry or metabolism showed no significant differences between the two groups (Riserus et al, 2001).
c. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) decreased body fat by 3.8% (p = 0.05) in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Body weight, body mass index (BMI), and sagittal abdominal diameter were unchanged. Fifty-three nonobese, normolipidemic subjects received CLA 4.2 grams daily or placebo (olive oil) for 12 weeks. No differences were noted in serum lipoproteins, nonesterified fatty acids, or plasminogen activator inhibitor 1 (PAI-1). A trend toward increased glucose levels was seen in the CLA-treated group as compared to the control group. CLA increased apolipoprotein B and decreased triglycerides and low-density lipoprotein compared to placebo (p=0.044 and p=0.039, respectively). No significant differences were observed between the two groups with regard to changes in fasting glucose, plasma insulin, nonesterified fatty acids, or PAI-1 (plasminogen activator inhibitor). The authors suggest that the diverging results of this study, as compared to others, could be due to the use of different isomers or differing effects of CLA on obese as compared to normal weight individuals (Smedman & Vessby, 2001).
d. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) 3.9 grams daily for 4 weeks did not change lipolytic rates in 6 weight-stable women as measured by glycerol rate of appearance (Ra) and free fatty acid release from adipocytes at rest or during exercise. The women (21 to 41 years old) were confined to a metabolic ward for 94 days and their diet was controlled and held constant. After a stabilization period, CLA supplementation was initiated. The authors noted that non-pure CLA was used and that the trans-10,cis-12 isomer may be more active in terms of body composition (Zambell et al, 2001).
e. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) significantly reduced body fat mass in a twelve-week, randomized, double-blind, placebo- controlled study of 60 overweight or moderately obese individuals. Subjects received placebo (9 grams olive oil daily) or CLA 1.7, 3.4, 5.1, or 6.8 grams daily in addition to olive oil in order to bring the total fatty acid intake to 9 grams daily. After twelve weeks of treatment, no group showed a significant reduction in weight or body mass index (BMI). However, a significant reduction in body fat mass (BFM) was seen with CLA 3.4 grams (p = 0.05) and 6.8 grams daily (p = 0.02). A trend was seen in CLA groups toward increased lean body mass (LBM) but this was only significant with CLA 6.8 grams daily (p less than or equal to 0.05). Since the subjects were exposed to either light or intensive exercise training during the course of the study, the authors point out that it is difficult to distinguish if the increase in LBM was due to CLA or training activities (Blankson et al, 2000).
f. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) 3 grams daily transiently lowered circulating leptin levels in healthy female volunteers. In other studies, leptin directly stimulated lipolysis in adipose tissue in vitro, and reduced food intake and increased metabolic rates in animals. Leptin levels initially significantly decreased (p=0.05) in CLA-treated subjects but returned to baseline levels by the end of the 57-day study. The lowest leptin level was observed on day 49 of the study. No significant differences were observed for plasma insulin levels although there was a trend toward increased insulin levels in the CLA-fed group that peaked at day 49. No significant changes in body fat or appetite were observed (Medina et al, 2000).
g. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) 3 grams daily did not change body composition or energy expenditure in 17 female adults confined to a metabolic suite for 64 days. Fat-free mass, fat mass, and body fat percentage were unchanged at the close of the study. Determination of body composition was achieved by total body electrical conductivity and dual x-ray absorptiometry. Body composition was measured three times per week during the study period. No significant changes in energy expenditure and utilization were reported. Sunflower oil was used as placebo. Authors cited use of a metabolic suite for control of diet, more accurate equipment, and more frequent measurement of body composition for their results conflicting with positive body composition changes reported by other studies. Researchers reported the use of a non-pure form of CLA with the trans-10, cis- 12 isomer being the most abundant isomer (Zambell et al, 2000).
4. ANIMAL:
a. Mice fed CLA at 1% and 2% of their diet by weight for 5 days had increased apoptosis of white adipose tissue. Apoptosis, measured by internucleosomal DNA degradation, was increased in the retroperitoneal fat pads of mice fed 2% CLA compared to control (p less than 0.01). A reduction of 10% to 12% feed intake in the mice consuming CLA may be responsible for part of the apoptosis, although authors cite other studies where apoptosis was not observed after restricting feed intake by 60%. No change in body weight was observed (Miner et al, 2001).
b. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) significantly altered body composition in developing rats compared to control. Female Sprague-Dawley rats were fed either a control diet or control diet plus 0.05% CLA from the time of gestation to weaning. At weaning, the pups were assigned to the control or CLA diet until 11 weeks of age. No differences were reported for the dams in body weight, number of pups, weight of litters, or feed intake. CLA-fed female pups were significantly heavier than those of dams fed the control diet at weaning at 21 days. The male progeny had significantly increased gastrocnemius muscle mass (p less than 0.001) and increased tail length (p less than 0.001) compared to controls by the end of the study. Males exposed to CLA during gestation and post-weaning were the largest, fastest growing, and most feed- efficient of all groups. The opposite held true for those males never exposed to CLA. At weaning, CLA-fed females had a significant reduction in fat pad mass and decreased adipose cell size, but not number of cells (Poulos et al, 2001).
c. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) improved insulin-stimulated glucose transport and glycogen synthase activity in skeletal muscle, reduced adiposity, improved glucose tolerance, upregulated uncouple protein-2 (UCP-2) in muscle and adipose tissue, and downregulated peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor (PPAR)- gamma mRNA in the liver in rats. Rats were fed a control diet, a CLA-supplemented diet (1.5% CLA), or 50% control diet and 50% CLA diet. The CLA diet contained 47% cis-9, trans-11-CLA, 47.9% cis- 10, trans-12-CLA or 91% cis-9, trans-11-CLA. The 50:50 diet was most effective in reducing adiposity, improving insulin-stimulated glucose transport and glycogen synthase activity in skeletal muscle, and improving glucose tolerance. Both the 50:50 and 91% cis-9,trans-11-CLA diets upregulated uncoupling protein 2 in muscle and adipose tissue, and downregulated PPAR-gamma mRNA in liver compared to control (Ryder et al, 2001).
d. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) reduced cell size of adipocytes but did not change cell numbers. Sprague-Dawley rats were fed 0.25 grams/100 grams or 0.5 grams/100 grams of purified CLA (97% CLA), or 0.5% of feed- grade CLA (55% CLA) for five weeks. Fat pad weight was reduced by 13%, 25%, and 32% in rats fed 0.25% (pure), 0.5% (pure) and 0.5% (feed-grade) CLA, respectively (p less than 0.05), as compared to controls. Compared to controls, CLA-fed mice had a mean adipose cell volume of 15%, 28%, and 29% lower in the rats fed 0.25 (pure), 0.5% (pure) and 0.5% (feed-grade) CLA, respectively (p less than 0.01) (Azain et al, 2000).
e. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) reduced fatty acid composition of perirenal white adipose tissue (PWAT) and serum leptin levels in Sprague-Dawley rats fed a diet containing 2% CLA for 1, 3, 6, and 12 weeks. Reduced leptin levels are associated with inhibition of food intake and acceleration of energy expenditure. CLA may act as a peroxisome proliferator activated receptor (PPAR) activator. Activating PPARs has reduced serum leptin levels (Yamasaki et al, 2000).
f. ICR female and male mice fed a diet containing 0.5% CLA had lower body fat and increased lean body mass as compared to controls. Slight differences in the male and female emerged. Body fat was reduced by 60% in female mice and 57% in males. Lean body mass increased by 14% in males and 5% in females compared to controls (p less than 0.05) (Park et al, 1997).

Last edited by Maxgain; 05-Nov-04 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 05-Nov-04, 02:14 PM   #15
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Interesting findings there Maxgain! Thanks for the post.
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