Cortisol Question...

[Par Deus]

Originally Posted by IronMan

desade, Par Deus, I have a tough time believing "papers" that are published to sell products. desade, the paper by James South is there obviously to sell a product. Par Deus, your link doesn't appear to work so I can't comment on it.

The effects and abilities of 7 keto appear to me to be overstated in the supression of cortisol. Of course, I may be wrong.....but I would rather see unbiased studies rather than product literature.

The link is working, on my end -- I have already stated that there is not direct research -- the article explains the theory, which I would be happy to discuss -- if my precense is not welcome, and my science automatically invalid, because I own a supplement company, that is certainly the right of the owners of this board, so I will be gone with a word, but I am quite certain anyone who is at all familiar with me and the quality of information I present in my post will not view that as being to their liking.

I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers, Par Deus. And I'm not speaking for the owners of the boards when I pose my questions -- I'm just a guy who has gotten tired of the BS thrown around by supplement companies over the years. Been bitten too many times by false promises and claims. And I ask myself who is at fault for that....me because I'm looking for help in putting on muscle? Or supplement companies because they are more than willing to take advantage of that simple fact?

It is difficult enough to know what to believe in ad copy. In posts like these I am looking for honesty and integrity more than anything else. How many company reps are truly willing to put those two qualities above a sale?

I don't know you sir. But I have seen too much of your "peer" that you have been debating in another thread and I don't trust him any further than I can throw him (I believe one of his claims on another board about one of his products was "it feels just like DNP"). Trusting you is going to be difficult for me......so please humor me and give me some time to see exactly where you are coming from.

BTW - the link is working now. I'll read the article and get back with you about any questions I have.

[Par Deus]

That is all totally understandable.

I've read the article (several times) and the gist of the article to me is that using 7-oxo dhea transdermally on the abdominal muscles should supress cortisol. But there are no studies to prove this, just theory.

To me, the whole theory is based on these statements: DHEA is converted to 7a-OH by the mechanism than converts cortisone to cortisol, 7a-OH is converted to 7-oxo by the mechanism than converts cortisol to cortisone, and, like DHEA, 7-oxo is converted to 7a-OH by the mechanism that converts cortisone to cortisol. IOW, interference with the direction of the cortisol to cortisone ratio in one direction, results in the formation of a compound that interferes with the enzymes activity in the opposite direction.

Not meaning to sound ignorant but I don't know what IOW stands for. It was probably in the article but looking around I could not find it.

How much DHEA was used in the studies you mentioned? Given orally or by injection?

Lastly, are any genuine studies planned to test your theory? With both your product and other delivery methods of 7-oxo? The results to me would be very interesting, because right now the only way for me to have proof is to lay out hard earned money (again) for a product that may or may not work as stated.

Once more, my apologies if that last statement sounded harsh, but is an unfortunate reality.

[dsade]

IOW is internetspeak for In Other Words

DOH! thanks!

[Par Deus]

We have a money back guarantee on all of our products, just so everyone knows.

I would love to do a real study on it, but that would run $20K+, even just in vitro, and we are still a small company, so it is not going to happen, from us, anytime soon -- I expect that there will be real studies, in the literature, happening, within the next 1-2 years, because a few researchers are on the same track as me, as far as the redox modulation, of the 11beta-HSD complex, and cortisol/HPA disfunction just has such profound health applications.

[Par Deus]

Do you have any objections with the logic/theory, BTW??

BTW = by the way

Originally Posted by Par Deus

I would love to do a real study on it, but that would run $20K+, even just in vitro

Thank you for being so up front about the studies. I understand the cash flow difficulties. I wish I had the $20K for you, because I would love to see if your product really does work for cortisol control. Of course, I realize that for only $44.95 I'll be able to discover the truth for myself! (Sorry, couldn't resist poking some fun. Hope you aren't too sensitive.)

Originally Posted by Par Deus

Do you have any objections with the logic/theory, BTW??

Logic and theroy......hmmmm. Tough question. I know that is how the world is built. Propose a theory based on logic, test the theory with logical progression and you get an answer. So logically in theory, I have no objection to it. But is it right for this venue? Now the doubt starts to creep in. Places like these boards are a good place to discuss what happens from using a supp. But theory isn't reality. And we should not be guinea pigs for marketers.

Look at ephedra free fat burners for example. They suck, and people on most boards (the exception: Elite Fitness and one particular brand) are not afraid to say that. Our posts run contrary to the claims made by marketers. But fortunately, we don't have to wade through post after post made by marketers to get to the ones made by real people either.

People come here looking for answers, and giving them theory, especially when money can be made off of it, is not a good thing. If a marketer wants to propose a theory, then they should pay the board owner to run advertising for them. Otherwise, boards like this that have free and open discussion will cease to exist and become nothing more than another marketing tool. The most wonderful part about the internet is that ad copy can be quickly changed so marketers can update their ads to reflect questions in the board. Can't you see it now? A question about cortisol pops up and a few days later your ad copy says PRODUCT X -- NOW FOR CORTISOL CONTROL!!! Click on the ad and you are at that very good article you wrote.

Originally Posted by Par Deus

BTW = by the way

LOL on the BTW.... On the IOW I was looking for scientific terms and I was SOL on finding the meaning. Wasn't looking for internet speak. Guess my mind was in another place!?!?

I have really enjoyed talking with you Par Deus. Obviously, you know your stuff, and even though I have never tried your products I know that I certainly will in the future. And your conversations with ulter have been extremely entertaining. Unfortunately, I don't know if these posts are ads or not. Myself, I do see them as being too close to the line so I think perhaps you should talk with either Big G or cursor. For more information about advertising, please visit this thread.

[Par Deus]

I actually contacted the board, about advertising, but received no response (pardeus@avantlabs.com if you guys see this

I don't know if you have checked out the feedback on it, but we have probably 25 people who have lost an inch on their waist, with one bottle, which certainly backs up the theory.

Regardless, I certainly respect your position -- I would do far better, financially, if everyone was as sceptical and critical as you -- most people just want the hope, so they tuck rational thought neatly aside (thus 95% of our industry is based on fraud and misleading the customer) -- we just let our science and feedback do the talking, so we will always win, with the educated/thinking consumer.

Originally Posted by Par Deus

I don't know if you have checked out the feedback on it, but we have probably 25 people who have lost an inch on their waist, with one bottle, which certainly backs up the theory.

How does fat loss in the waist back up the theory of blocking cortisol? Fat loss, certainly, but as a cortisol block? Explain to me what I am missing?!? I'm under the impression that cortisol eats muscle, not fat. And 7-oxo dhea is strongly indicated in aiding fat loss. You've got me totally lost on how this backs the theory....

[dsade]

New study linking 11-beta HSD, cortisol, and adipose tissue


********************

Eur J Endocrinol. 2003 Sep;149(3):163-8. Related Articles, Links


TIssue-specific Cushing's syndrome, 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases and the redefinition of corticosteroid hormone action.

Stewart PM.

Division of Medical Sciences, University of Birmingham, Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Birmingham B15 2TH, UK.

Two isoforms of 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (11beta-HSD) interconvert the active glucocorticoid, cortisol, and inactive cortisone. 11beta-HSD1 acts predominantly as an oxo-reductase in vivo using NADP(H) as a cofactor to generate cortisol. In contrast, 11beta-HSD2 is a NAD-dependent dehydrogenase inactivating cortisol to cortisone, thereby protecting the mineralocorticoid receptor from occupation by cortisol. In peripheral tIssues, both enzymes serve to control the availability of cortisol to bind to corticosteroid receptors. 11beta-HSD2 protects the mineralocorticoid receptor from cortisol excess; mutations in the HSD11B2 gene explain an inherited form of hypertension, the syndrome of 'apparent mineralocorticoid excess', in which 'Cushing's disease of the kidney' results in cortisol-mediated mineralocorticoid excess. Inhibition of 11beta-HSD2 explains the mineralocorticoid excess state seen following liquorice ingestion and more subtle defects in enzyme expression might be involved in the pathogenesis of 'essential' hypertension.11beta-HSD1 by generating cortisol in an autocrine fashion facilitates glucocorticoid receptor-mediated action in key peripheral tIssues including liver, adipose tIssue, bone and the eye. 'Cushing's disease of the omentum' has been proposed as an underlying mechanism in the pathogenesis of central obesity and raises the exciting possibility of selective 11beta-HSD1 inhibition as a novel therapy for patients with the metabolic syndrome.'Pre-receptor' metabolism of cortisol via 11beta-HSD isozymes is an important facet of corticosteroid hormone action. Aberrant expression of these isozymes is involved in the pathogenesis of diverse human diseases including hypertension, insulin resistance and obesity. Modulation of enzyme activity may offer a future therapeutic approach to treating these diseases whilst circumventing the endocrine consequences of glucocorticoid excess or deficiency.

PMID: 12943516 [PubMed - in process]

[dsade]

Another recently released study.
************************

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Aug;88(8):3983-8. Related Articles, Links


Local and systemic impact of transcriptional up-regulation of 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 in adipose tissue in human obesity.

Wake DJ, Rask E, Livingstone DE, Soderberg S, Olsson T, Walker BR.

Endocrinology Unit, School of Molecular and Clinical Medicine, University of Edinburgh, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland EH4 2XU.

In idiopathic obesity circulating cortisol levels are not elevated, but high intraadipose cortisol concentrations have been implicated. 11beta-Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 (11HSD1) catalyzes the conversion of inactive cortisone to active cortisol, thus amplifying glucocorticoid receptor (GR) activation. In cohorts of men and women, we have shown increased ex vivo 11HSD1 activity in sc adipose tissue associated with in vivo obesity and insulin resistance. Using these biopsies, we have now validated this observation by measuring 11HSD1 and GR mRNA and examined the impact on intraadipose cortisol concentrations, putative glucocorticoid regulated adipose target gene expression (angiotensinogen and leptin), and systemic measurements of cortisol metabolism. From aliquots of sc adipose biopsies from 16 men and 16 women we extracted RNA for real-time PCR and steroids for immunoassays. Adipose 11HSD1 mRNA was closely related to 11HSD1 activity [standardized beta coefficient (SBC) = 0.58; P < 0.01], and both were positively correlated with parameters of obesity (e.g. for BMI, SBC = 0.48; P < 0.05 for activity, and SBC = 0.63; P < 0.01 for mRNA) and insulin sensitivity (log fasting plasma insulin; SBC = 0.44; P < 0.05 for activity, and SBC = 0.33; P = 0.09 for mRNA), but neither correlated with urinary cortisol/cortisone metabolite ratios. Adipose GR-alpha and angiotensinogen mRNA levels were not associated with obesity or insulin resistance, but leptin mRNA was positively related to 11HSD1 activity (SBC = 0.59; P < 0.05) and tended to be associated with parameters of obesity (BMI: SBC = 0.40; P = 0.09), fasting insulin (SBC = 0.65; P < 0.05), and 11HSD1 mRNA (SBC = 0.40; P = 0.15). Intraadipose cortisol (142 +/- 30 nmol/kg) was not related to 11HSD1 activity or expression, but was positively correlated with plasma cortisol. These data confirm that idiopathic obesity is associated with transcriptional up-regulation of 11HSD1 in adipose, which is not detected by conventional in vivo measurements of urinary cortisol metabolites and is not accompanied by dysregulation of GR. Although this may drive a compensatory increase in leptin synthesis, whether it has an adverse effect on intraadipose cortisol concentrations and GR-dependent gene regulation remains to be established.

PMID: 12915696 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Ok, but how are 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone (7-oxo dhea) and 11beta-Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (11beta-HSD) considered the same product?

[DaRkAnGel]

Originally Posted by Sizzle

what other supplements/vitamins besides vitamin C help suppress cortisol secretion? and also whats a good reported daily amount of vitamin C? i take a 1000 mg capsule everyday and drink orange juice all through the day, but is that enough to stop most cortisol at its tracks?

what else works?

thanks

- sizzle

Woah woah woah you need cortisol man. Don't supress it entirely...