Creatine or Protein for post workout

Manger · 22-Sep-06, 05:48 PM

I heard that protein was the most important thing to take after a workout, but I bought some cellmass and it says to take it post workout on an empty stomach. Do the two cancel each other out? Does your body only absorb protein or creatine and waste the other?

rab91787 · 22-Sep-06, 09:24 PM

I wouldn't think so.

**MAURER** · 24-Sep-06, 12:14 AM

no they work pretty well together. take both post workout. take the creatine right after you're done lifting and then the protein 20 minutes later it works pretty well

**.V.** · 24-Sep-06, 04:16 PM

Add some dextrose, maltodextrin, or even a drink made with table sugar (like gatoraid) to the creatine. Take it with or before the protein.

EliteLift · 24-Sep-06, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Add some dextrose, maltodextrin, or even a drink made with table sugar (like gatoraid) to the creatine. Take it with or before the protein.

he's is useing cellmass wich is creatine ethal ester and does not require any carrier such as dextrose or maltodextrin. i wouldn't mix them (protien/creatine) together, take your cell mass first wait 20 minutes and then consume your protine like suggested above. i'm not a huge fan of bsn but out of all there products cell mass cell mass is the only one i like and use, i'v had great gains with it although for much cheaper you can buy 100% pure creatine monohydrate and some dextrose and it will pretty much work just as well not to mention it will last alot longer than your cellmass!

Manger · 24-Sep-06, 06:22 PM

Thanks guys just wasn't sure why they would say to take it on an empty stomach. Im not a big fan of BSN either, but its damn hard to find a good creatine without all of the sugar.

**.V.** · 24-Sep-06, 09:21 PM

I missed the cellmass part. I just use plain old creatine monohydrate and add my own sugar in the form of dextrose, malto, or both so that I get the amount I want.

Right now I'm wanting 100g of postworkout carbs with 10g of creatine so mixing my own is the only way to go.

EliteLift · 25-Sep-06, 12:01 AM

the creatine monohydrate i normally buy is made buy a japanese company called bioX, its 100% creatine monohydrate with no suger or carrier of any kind added (unlike cellmass) witch means if you ever use it and want any absorption to your cells you will have to take it with some sort of carrier such as, dextrose, maltodextrin, grape juice, or grape fruit juice witch have been proven to work best for improved absorption. i might use cell mass more if it wasn't so expensive and lasted longer, but for now i have had great resaults with monohyrate as well, and it costs me less than half of what cell mass does and lasts twice as long. if you look around your will find a good 100% pure creatine monohydrate without to much trouble. anyways good luck with your creatine cycle i hope you found some of this helpfull.

Maxgain · 25-Sep-06, 07:32 AM

Just lump everything together why make things difficult

**.V.** · 25-Sep-06, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxgain

Just lump everything together why make things difficult

Why? Because if you have the time and are willing to make the effort it's more effective if you take your creatine/dextrose/malto mix then wait 10-15 minutes before having the whey.

Myself, my protein/creatine/glutamine/milk/banana all goes into the blender together. My dextrose koolaid is already prepared, I gulp the koolaid and chase it with the protien immediately because when my workout intensity is high I'm shaky at the end of it and want FOOD, AND LOTS OF IT IMMEDIATELY. Besides I don't want to wait 15 minutes to get the sugar rush and followup insulin spike so I can watch myself growing...yeah, I know I'm really not watching myself grow, but the postworkout "pump" that happens when all those ingredients start sucking water into the cells and 15 minutes later are 1/2 inch bigger everywhere that anyone can see feels pretty good...and I don't want to wait for it.

One thing that has caught me off guard though, now that I'm using 100g of postworkout carbs instead of just 32-57 like I used to use...hypoglycemia is a real risk. The insulin response can sometimes lower the blood sugar further/faster than expected. Two weeks ago, I got cold, clammy, dizzy, turned retarded, my wife is a paramedic and nurse so she spotted what happened immediately, checked my glucose - it was 27. Another 35g of dextrose with some more protein took care of it and I felt like **** the rest of the day. Now when I get the postworkout shakes I be sure to have extra dextrose and protein immediately. That was my first time with 10g of creatine though, that may have contributed to it some...too much going to the muscles and not enough staying in the blood to get to the brain.

Maxgain · 25-Sep-06, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_welch503

Why? Because if you have the time and are willing to make the effort it's more effective if you take your creatine/dextrose/malto mix then wait 10-15 minutes before having the whey.

How?????????????

**.V.** · 25-Sep-06, 09:55 AM

You are the chemist - you should be able to explain it best.

Something about get into the hyperinsulin state from the carbs taking effect. Take the liquid, fast absorbing protein after that state begins. Then it is more quickly moved into the muscle cells.

I don't know what the studies or evidence to back it up are. All I can say for certain is among the people I actually know who lift and get good results - those who do it that way seem to grow faster than those who do it like I do and take it all at once. Just another little piece of the muscle growth puzzle that they are putting into place a little better than the rest of us. Or better than me anyway.

Maxgain · 25-Sep-06, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_welch503

You are the chemist - you should be able to explain it best.

Something about get into the hyperinsulin state from the carbs taking effect. Take the liquid, fast absorbing protein after that state begins. Then it is more quickly moved into the muscle cells.

I don't know what the studies or evidence to back it up are. All I can say for certain is among the people I actually know who lift and get good results - those who do it that way seem to grow faster than those who do it like I do and take it all at once. Just another little piece of the muscle growth puzzle that they are putting into place a little better than the rest of us. Or better than me anyway.

What about that the dextose will be absorbed quicker anyway initiating an insulin response and that the whey alone will initate an insulin response. It takes one hour for the blood amino acids to peak with whey so why wait 15 minutes until after carbs are taken.

**.V.** · 25-Sep-06, 12:03 PM

I don't know - I'm not the one with the chemistry degree. My medical training is what to do in an immediate emergency. I'm only an endocrine expert when I have to teach endocrinology for two weeks during A&P classes, after which I promptly forget all I've reviewed and re-learned until next semester.

I have noticed that insulin seems to go up within about 15 minutes after dextrose is taken orally. That's why If I treat a patient with oral dextrose for hypo - they will have a blood glucose of 220 when it was only 30 or so about 10 minutes earlier. 15 minutes after taking it, it seems to be going down - if they still have insulin in their system. I've checked my own blood sugar to find out how much PWO nutrition I actually need to get optimum results vs just overdoing it and getting fat. I seem to have the highest blood sugar about 15 minutes after taking dextrose. It starts dropping at 20 minutes. If I use protein after 15 minutes, it stay up a bit longer. If I take them together, sometimes I'll actually get hypo (yaay, my pancreas works now and I'm no longer insulin resistant like I was 3 years ago).

It's just what I've noticed seems to work better and some really big guys that make me look like a 10 year old girl by comparison have also noticed. However, I'm too lazy to take the trouble to time it like that. I just take it all at the same time and hope for the best. If I get hypo from kicking out too much insulin at once, I'll take some more dextrose and protein until I feel better.

Nothing I'm saying here is anything I can prove with studies or scientific evidence - unless you count one guy checking his blood sugar and experimenting to see what PWO plan seems to be most effective as a study.

Give it a shot sometime and see how it works for you. Might be worth the effort. Personally, even though timing it seems to be optimal, it is a bit much effort for me.

One day, I'm going to do like some of the really big guys I know in the next town over from here do. Grow a pair, bring home some 50% Dextrose, an IV setup, and grab some Humulin R at the pharmacy to see what happens...not really, I do know some monsters who do that - but I'd like to actually live to see what I can accomplish with my body - not die for it.

Maxgain · 25-Sep-06, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_welch503

I don't know - I'm not the one with the chemistry degree. My medical training is what to do in an immediate emergency. I'm only an endocrine expert when I have to teach endocrinology for two weeks during A&P classes, after which I promptly forget all I've reviewed and re-learned until next semester.

I have noticed that insulin seems to go up within about 15 minutes after dextrose is taken orally. That's why If I treat a patient with oral dextrose for hypo - they will have a blood glucose of 220 when it was only 30 or so about 10 minutes earlier. 15 minutes after taking it, it seems to be going down - if they still have insulin in their system. I've checked my own blood sugar to find out how much PWO nutrition I actually need to get optimum results vs just overdoing it and getting fat. I seem to have the highest blood sugar about 15 minutes after taking dextrose. It starts dropping at 20 minutes. If I use protein after 15 minutes, it stay up a bit longer. If I take them together, sometimes I'll actually get hypo (yaay, my pancreas works now and I'm no longer insulin resistant like I was 3 years ago).

It stays up longer because the protein intself will ilicit its own response. If you find you create too much of an insulin reponse taking it all at once take half immedialty and half about 20mins later. Thats how i do it.
Cant see that separation of macro nutrients could lead to noticable better gains in that way cant see the point of the hassle.

You state that the insulin from the glucose is drops after 20 mins whey only peaks at one hour by waiting that 20 minutes you are failing to utilise the insulin response of the dextrose and as such reduce optimal delivery.

For those reading its important to note what is being discussed here is quite negligible in the grandscheme of bodybuilding. Dextrose maltodextrin bread whey meat it really doesnt matter that much as long as you are providing nutrients to your body after training. Its the pre workout meal that is most important for the training process.