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Old 19-Dec-02, 05:10 AM   #1
Down_Under
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Creatine: Serum vs Powder


I went to buy my protein powder today and the lady behind the counter started talking to me about creatine as Im currently not using it and she wants to make more money but anyway, she gave me some brouchers on creatine serum. It has a safety comparison aswell:

Creatine Serum-----vs----Powders

Serum : No short term effects. Does not cause water retention, bloating or cramping.
Powder: Causes water retention, resulting in dehydration, bloating and cramping.

Serum: No long term side effects. No percipitation. Completely safe.
Powder: Waste Product creatinine percipitates into liver and kidneys.

Serum: Contains additional supplements highly beneficial to athletes.
Powder: May Contain other ingredients, e.g sugar, in amounts detrimental to the body.

Serum: No loading, Maintenance or cycling required.
Powder: Must be taken in very large dosages and cycled to remain effective.

Serum: 100% soluble. Reaches the muscles in minutes.
Powder: Highly insoluble. Most is unused due to its extremely low absorption rate.

Serum: Instant absorption.
Powder: Takes one hour or more to digest.

Serum: 100% stable. 2-year shelf life.
Powder: Unstable. Rapidly degrades into creatinine.


Ingredients
Creatine Serum ATP Advantage: (per serving 5ml)
Glycerine 500mg
Honey 200mg
Siberian Ginseng 40mg
Royal Jelly 5mg
Vitamin B12 50mcg
Natural Flavour, Distilled Water

Energy 16.55kcal/70.3kJ


Creatine Serum Xtra Advantage:
Honey 200mg
Calcium Citrate 125mg
Glucosamine Sulfate 100mg
Magnesium Citrate 50mg
L-Glutamine 25mg
L-Taurine 25mg
L-Carnitine 25mg
Zinc Gluconate 10mg
Royal Jelly 5mg
Siberian Ginseng 5mg
Vitamin B12
(Cyanocobalamine) 3mcg
Glycerine, Natural Flavour, Distilled Water

Energy 16.55kcal/70.3kJ

I just thought you might like to know, I dont know if its all true or what but its an interesting read.

There are more serums available but I only have the brouchers for 2 of them. I think it was taken from creatine.com so if you want to look more in to it then check it out.

Brad
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Old 19-Dec-02, 02:30 PM   #2
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creatine serum is a waste of money, theres no creatine in it.
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Old 19-Dec-02, 04:24 PM   #3
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Some of the very very very latest liquid creatine manufactured does work but the pro's are using it is is hardly out yet.... powder is best like theroc said creatine is unstable in liquid.... so by the time you get it, there is nothing left and them facts about the two are not always true ... it does not always cause them things.
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Old 21-Dec-02, 12:53 PM   #4
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Damn right theroc, creatine serum is s***t avoid it like the plague
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Old 21-Dec-02, 01:25 PM   #5
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copied and pasted from ast-ss.com

Creatine Serum Report - PART I

by Paul Delia
Founder and President, AST Sports Science

Here's what they claim for the creatine serum and here are the facts:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claim
Serum: No loading - take just minutes before exercise.
Powder: Loading required - must be taken in large amounts for 5 days prior to exercise.

Supports For Their Claim
None - No scientific studies or data backs up their claim that there is no need to load with Creatine Serum. In other words, they made this up to convince you to buy it.

Fact
You don't have to load with any creatine. It's not mandatory. However, scientific studies show that you can achieve maximum muscle creatine saturation in 5 days through a 5 gram - 4 times a day protocol. Scientific studies also show you can achieve muscle creatine saturation by taking 3 grams once a day for 30 days. Each way has its advantages and diadvatages.

So their claim that there is no need to load with the serum verses a need to load with powdered creatine is completely misleading and void of the physiological facts involving the body's utilization of creatine. If you want to achieve muscle creatine saturation in the same amount of time you will have to go through the loading phase with the serum just as you do with the powder. It's that simple. It does not matter if it's in a liquid form or not. You body utilizes it the same way.

For this company to insinuate that their creatine somehow acts differently in the body than creatine powder is pure wishful thinking on their part. Or attempted deception on their part. I guess it depends on how you look at it. They're either deceiving you or they're just totally inept and actually believe what they are saying.

A simple "show me the science" will leave you and them empty handed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claim
Serum: No maintenance - take only on training days
Powder: Daily maintenance - must be taken even on non-training days.

Supports For Their Claim
None - No scientific studies show that their creatine serum does not need to be taken on days you don't train. They also made this up to convince you to buy it. Why wouldn't you need to take it on non-training days?

Fact
They are trying to convince you that just because it's a liquid there is no need to take it on days you don't train, but you must take the powder on days you don't train to achieve the same results. Again this is another very misleading statement. And it's simply not true. Creatine will saturate your muscle cells whether you train or not. Taking the creatine serum on training days and not non training days would act exactly the same as taking powdered creatine on training days and not on non training days. Because the Creatine Serum is in a liquid form does not add any special ability to the creatine that would enable you to only have to take it on training days. If you want a continual creatine supply to the muscles you will need to take it every day. The liquid medium does not change this.

By making this claim they are trying to mislead you into thinking that their product is superior when no evidence even comes close to suggesting this. In fact, the science indicates the exact opposite due to creatine's rapid degradation in a liquid medium.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claim
Serum: Instant absorption.
Powder: Takes one hour or more to digest.

Supports For Their Claim
None - No scientific studies show that their creatine serum is absorbed instantly or any faster than powdered creatine. Again, they made this claim up too.

Fact Just because it's a liquid does not mean your body does not have to digest it. That's absurd. In fact, there is no evidence and certainly no scientific study showing that this creatine serum is absorbed, enters the bloodstream, or saturates muscle tissue any faster than powdered creatine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claim
Serum: Completely assimilated into the muscles in minutes.
Powder: 50% wasted during the digestion process.

Supports For Their Claim
None - No scientific studies show that their creatine serum is assimilated into the muscles in minutes and no science shows that creatine powder is 50% wasted in the digestion process. In other words, this has no truth backing it whatsoever.

Fact
It is physiologically impossible for this creatine serum to be "Completely assimilated into the muscles in minutes". That would be nice, but even an intravenous injection would not enable this to happen. And nowhere in the scientific research is there any indication that 50% of powdered creatine is wasted during digestion. They just made this one up as well. Like all the other claims so far, they completely made it up with no means or scientific data to back it up. None.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claim
Serum: 100% stable - 2 year shelf life.
Powder: Unstable - rapidly degrades into waste product creatinine.

Supports For Their Claim
None - No scientific studies show that their creatine serum is stable at all much less that it has a 2 year shelf life. There are specific FDA protocols that are used to establish "shelf life" and I am not aware of any stability testing done on this product.

Fact
I have no idea if it's stable for 2 days or 2 years. I do know that creatine in a liquid will rapidly degrade into creatinine in a matter of days. And Creatine Serum is in a liquid. Until it is validated that it is stable and will not degrade I can only assume that the scientific and chemical reference books are correct and that it will degrade as quickly as any creatine that is put into a liquid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claim
Serum: Does not cause water retention, bloating or cramping.
Powder: Causes water retention resulting in dehydration, bloating and cramping.

Supports For Their Claim
None - No scientific studies indicate that Creatine Serum works any differently than creatine powder. In fact, it's physiologically impossible and to suggest that it does is completely untrue.

Fact
Creatine in a liquid, if it remained stable (and this is a big "IF"), would act no differently in the body than creatine in a powder form. Their own statement about powder creatine, "Causes water retention resulting in dehydration, bloating and cramping.", is incorrect, contradictory, and misleading. If creatine causes water retention then how can it cause dehydration? And we are back to the fact that the creatine molecule is the same whether it's in a liquid medium or a powder, so it will impart the same physiological effect either way.

Because creatine is in a liquid does not mean it will function any differently. Also, the negatives listed on their bottle for powder creatine are simply not true and have no scientific validity.

That's like saying, "Muscle turns to fat, but if you take my product muscle will not turn to fat." If it's physiologically impossible for muscle to turn into fat in the first place how is taking my product going to stop something that would never happen? Call this what you want, but I call it a blatant misleading statement designed to sell you on a product by giving it virtues that don't exist.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claim
Serum: Stay with your normal water intake.
Powder: Must consume extra water to counteract dehydration.

Supports For Their Claim
None - No scientific studies indicate that Creatine Serum works any differently (if at all) than powdered creatine. No studies suggest you need to consume any less water with Creatine Serum than with powdered creatine. They made this one up too.

Fact
Creatine imparts a portion of its benefit by its ability to hyper-hydrate the muscle cell. You consume extra water while taking creatine to assist this hyper-hydration. You don't drink extra water to prevent dehydration because of the creatine. As I said before, the creatine molecule is the same regardless of what medium it is delivered in. If you could maintain a stable creatine solution then its physiological effect on the body would be no different than creatine in a powder form. So to take full advantage of a "liquid" creatine you would need extra fluid to assist the creatine's effect on hydrating the muscle cell.

If creatine caused dehydration it would cause this whether it was in a powder form or liquid form. It would not be because of the powder. It would be because of creatine's physiological effect on the body. But there is no scientific evidence indicating that creatine causes dehydration.

They are trying to instill some magic quality to Creatine Serum and at the same time bucking the physiological effects creatine, in any form, has on muscle hydration. It's like saying, "Fertilize your lawn with this 'special' fertilizer and you won't have to water your lawn in the summer time like you do with the other fertilizers". Grass needs water in the summer regardless of the type of fertilizer and when taking creatine your body needs fluid to provide the extra hydration (not to counteract dehydration) to the muscle cells no matter what type of creatine it is.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
continued.....
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Old 21-Dec-02, 01:30 PM   #6
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PART II

Conclusion

Their promotional statements are misleading, incorrect and factually and educationally void of any scientific validity. As I read the side of this bottle I'm left to wonder how they can legally and morally sell this product with the claims they are making. Their entire promotion of this product is based on absolutely no scientific substantiation whatsoever. Not even a backyard study.

Even on their web site they are quick to cite scientific studies extolling the positive effects of creatine, but the peculiar thing is the studies that they so quickly reference are studies done using powdered creatine and not Creatine Serum. Imagine that, they use the science from the very creatine powder they say is no good in the promotion of their liquid creatine.

As one of my colleagues said, they took every negative ever unjustifiably associated with creatine and said because theirs is in a liquid it will not cause any of them. And by doing this, not only are they obviously ignorant of the scientific research on creatine, but they are making up imaginary benefits for the Creatine Serum that solidifies their total lack of knowledge.

Here is what we are going to do. I have two freshly purchased unopened bottles of Creatine Serum sitting on my desk. I will send these off to two different independent laboratories. I will have the labs test for creatine and creatinine. Maybe they have discovered a way to keep creatine stable in a liquid. We'll certainly know after the tests are completed. But even if they have found a way to keep creatine stable in a liquid they still come up completely empty handed on every claim they are making to sell their product. And when they sell 85 grams of creatine for $36.95 and are making these sales through misleading hype and what appears to be blatant false promotions of the product's effects, then they are in essence committing fraud against the consumers that buy it.

As with many companies in this industry, this one is no different. They are all after a piece of the pie. The bigger the piece they can get the more money they'll make. And as you can see they'll stop at nothing to sell their products.

There are consumer protection laws in this country to help guard the consumer from such fraud. Just this week a company known for selling two weight loss products, "Fat Trapper" and "Exercise in a Bottle" yep , through late night and weekend infomercials was fined 10 million dollars for misleading hundreds of thousands of consumers with the promotion of their products. In the case of Creatine Serum I don't see any difference. A lie is a lie and the law says you cannot lie to sell your products. The only reason companies like this one have yet to face the same type of penalties is because our government simply does not have the resources to prosecute all of them. But in due time their fraudulent behavior will catch up to them. In the meantime, don't be sucked in to the hype.




Creatine Serum Test Results

Component-------- Label Claim --------- Actual Contents

Creatine ------------500 mg. / ml-------- 5.5 mg. / ml
Creatinine -------------0 mg. / ml------- 12.1 mg. / ml
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Old 21-Dec-02, 01:35 PM   #7
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PART III


An entire bottle of Creatine Serum contains less than 1 gram of creatine. I have to admit I didn't think the tests would come back this bad. Less than 1 gram in the entire bottle. You would have to drink 6 full bottles a day just to get 5 grams of creatine. 6 bottles a day!

As for the stability issue, like I said and like the scientific literature clearly indicates, creatine in a liquid medium will degrade into the useless byproduct creatinine. Creatine Serum has over twice the amount of creatinine as it does creatine. So much for their 100% stability claim.

Those of you who are familiar with me and AST Sports Science are well aware of the stance that I and my company take on the sports nutrition industry and its quality and advertising standards. This industry is my life. I have spent 16 hours a day for the last 13 years building this company on product quality, valid research, and responsible marketing standards that you the consumer are entitled to.

Some people would think I would have a s-h-i-t eating grin on my face as I read the results of this test. Not true. It's a sad moment for me. I've dedicated my life to educating and helping people from all walks of life obtain enhanced physical fitness and physique development and to see such disregard for product quality, honesty, and a complete lack of consumer respect is a slap in the face and mockery of what I've worked so hard to influence.
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Old 21-Dec-02, 01:54 PM   #8
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I couldn't copy from bodybuildingforyou.com , so here's the link:



creatine

Steve
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Old 21-Dec-02, 05:38 PM   #9
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Steve knows of what he writes. Liquid creatine, of any brand, is a complete waste of money.

There used to be an annual report that was sold in bookstores that gave a comparision of what was claimed to be in various sports supplements based on their labels versus what was actually in them based on lab testing. In every single case, the liquid/serum creatine products contained literally no creatine at all by the time they got to the store shelves.
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Old 22-Dec-02, 02:48 AM   #10
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Thumbs up

Thanks for the info Steve!

Atb,

Gaffer.
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Old 22-Dec-02, 07:00 PM   #11
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creatine serum sucks. my buddy runs a GNC they laugh everytime they sell one, they even tell the people not to buy it.
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Old 24-Dec-02, 10:02 PM   #12
Vincent302
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So


So...if powdered Creatine does not help you build muscles, is it a waste to take it. I thought that it was aiding my muscle growth. If so, I can save $20 a month.

BTW - I have only been on it 5 days.

Thanks
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