fat loss gels

[xrichmondx]

i was reading about fat loss gels such as absolved yohimburn and lipoderm-y but i didnt see anywhere if it said thye had and bad side effects or anything. would these products also work while im bulking. also is the only place to get them online or can you pic them up at liek a local stor such as gnc. and as for long term results after you stop using it does the fat seem to stay off if you are working out or will it come back once you are off

[xrichmondx]

also can you use these products effectively with creatine or will the counter react each other

[dsade]

Absolved is getting great reviews for people who are bulking, but want to keep fat gain to a minimum.
I think Lipoderm-y is definitely meant for dieting down. They aren't available (yet) at any retail stores, but I think bb.com and 1fast400.com have the cheapest prices.

Yohimburn is hard to tell, because they delete any negative feedback on their board.


As to what happens after you stop using them, the most important factor is your diet. They are not magic, and will not make up for a crappy diet. Cortisol is also a major player, especially around the midsection. Keeping cortisol under control will help keep the fat from coming back.

[ulter]

"Yohimburn is hard to tell, because they delete any negative feedback on their board."

Who are "they"? Yohimburn.com doesn't have a board. All the posts with people getting great results using Yohimburn are on dozens of boards all over the internet. What you said sounds like the kind of thing that the lipoderm people use to steer business away from Yohimburn. If you want to see all the people with great results from Yohimburn you should visit these.

www.anabolex.com
www.steroidology.com
www.massmonsters.com
www.chemicalmuscle.com
www.muscletalk.co.uk
www.anabolicfitness.net
www.elitefitness.net
www.body4life.com
www.healthboards.com

And too many more to write. Yohimburn DF rocks!

[dsade]

Originally Posted by ulter

"Yohimburn is hard to tell, because they delete any negative feedback on their board."

Who are "they"? Yohimburn.com doesn't have a board. All the posts with people getting great results using Yohimburn are on dozens of boards all over the internet. What you said sounds like the kind of thing that the lipoderm people use to steer business away from Yohimburn. If you want to see all the people with great results from Yohimburn you should visit these.

www.anabolex.com
www.steroidology.com
www.massmonsters.com
www.chemicalmuscle.com
www.muscletalk.co.uk
www.anabolicfitness.net
www.elitefitness.net
www.body4life.com
www.healthboards.com

And too many more to write. Yohimburn DF rocks!

I have seen quite a few people say that any negative comments they make on AnabolicFitness and Elitefitness about Yohimburn are promptly deleted. Of course, since it is your product, you are going to pump it up - there is nothing wrong with that, but why not let ALL feedback stay?

Most of the people I have read feedback from that used them both got better results from the Lipoderm.

[ulter]

The people who tried lipoderm this past spring and didn't like it could return the unused portion to Yohimburn DF and get a free bottle of Yohimburn DF. As we expected we got a lot of unhappy lipoderm users turning in their bottles for the better product. Yohimburn outsells lipoderm by nearly 10 to 1. Try putting lipoderm on your face and you'll know why. It's based in alcohol and is very irritating to the skin. There is NO alcohol in Yohimburn DF.

We don't have anything to do with posts at Elite that are deleted. The owner of lipoderm called the members at Elite "retards and the laughing stock of all the other boards". So the mods there are pretty upset with him. They delete any post about his products or him. If the post is merely someone who used Yohimburn saying that they didn't get the results they wanted the post will still be there. In fact, there are posts like that that go back 2 years. There are 100 positive posts for every negative but the negatives are there unless they mention the lipoderm owners products or name.
That's only half of the reason though. The other half is that the owner of the board, and many other boards, don't let people solicit on their board unless they are sponsors. At Elite we are the only ones who pay the thousands of dollars required to sponsor the board. The lipoderm owner refuses to pay to sponsor boards that require it for posting solicitation posts.That's his choice but his friends think he's getting a raw deal and post about it. The truth is he's made this bed and has to sleep in it.

[dsade]

So, you admit that at AnabolicFitness (your board, if I am not mistaken?) you delete all the negative feedback about Lipoderm, but that the deletions at Elite are just a side result of "getting back" at the owner of Lipoderm? That doesn't seem conducive to finding out out what the most effective supplements are - regardless of manufacturer.

Why not just let all feedback stand as it is? Once you start deleting any posts, I wonder how anyone can be sure that the few negative ones left in are not 1/100th of the ones posted. Maybe they are just left in for show as well. That stinks of marketing manipulation to me.

I agree that when you are talking blatant solicitations, that is fine that the companies should pay for it. It just seems that pretty soon that money skews the feedback, and turns what should be objective discussions about product effectiveness into a "good old boy" network of marketing blitzes.

From what I read about the difference in formulations, the very things which you claim are the reasons it burns if you put it on your face are some of the reasons why Lipo looks to be the better product - namely more effect penetration enhancers. Also, from what I have seen, a lot of people were turning in quite empty bottles of Lipo, merely to get a free bottle of something else. Hell, why not?

[ulter]

"So, you admit that at AnabolicFitness (your board, if I am not mistaken?) you delete all the negative feedback about Lipoderm"

No. ALL posts that mention Lipoderm are deleted not just the negative or positive ones on AF.
What's so hard to understand about this? Do you think that if people walked around with banners for Coke they wouldn't be ushered out of the Pepsi 400? The reason Yohimburn doesn't use alcohol in the product is that it both irritates you skin and it doesn't add anything to the effectiveness. It's superfluous or it WOULD be in Yohimburn. It’s just a gimmick that we don’t feel is of any benefit. And since Yohimburn outsells lipoderm by a 10 to 1 margin I think we were right to leave it out.

Not all posts about other products are deleted BTW.
This is a post from one of OUR MODS on OUR BOARD from last week. In it the mod lists all the products he likes to use for his body building competitions. Granted he's never used any of our products so he's not comparing them. But the names of 5 competing product are in his post. Now if we were in to deleting posts we'd have asked him to take it down. But obviously we are not. IF he had mentioned any product made by the makers of Lipoderm however it would be deleted but that's due to a personal issue I won't get into here.


>>

gopro
260 lb Natty MOD
posted 08-25-2003 02:46 PM


Just thought I'd share a few amazing products that are OTC and can be used for gaining mass and/or contest prep. Many of you have probably already used them or heard of them, but just in case...

-LOADED by SAN...amazing insulin mimicker
-PLASMA EXPANDOR by VPX...awesome creatine loading product
-NECTAR WHEY by Syntrax...100% isolate with zero carbs and great fruit flavors
-SYNGEX I and II by VPX...two of the best prosteroid products available
-GLUTAMINE PEPTIDES by Sports One
-6-OXO by Ergopharm...great anti-estrogen
-AROMADEX by VPX...awesome anti-E and natural test booster
-TIGHT by SAN...ephedra fee fat burner
-SYNTRAX STRAIGHT...very good straight creatine supplement
-Liquid Clenbutrx by VPX...the best fat burner out there (tastes lousy but works!)
-1-AD by Ergopharm...very good feedback on this prohormone
-4-Test/1-Test cypionate by VPX...expensive, but THE most powerful prosteroids on the market


Hope this helps somebody!!

>>


Most of exchanged bottles were nearly full and were turned in by people who didn't like burning their skin with alcohol. Not by people trying to get something for nothing by sending in empty bottles.

[ShadowJack]

Originally Posted by ulter

The reason Yohimburn doesn't use alcohol in the product is that it both irritates you skin and it doesn't add anything to the effectiveness. It's superfluous or it WOULD be in Yohimburn. It’s just a gimmick that we don’t feel is of any benefit.

Ulter, the reasoning that alcohol is included in Lipoderm-Y is two-fold, IMO:

1. The alcoholic carrier utilized in Lipoderm-Y has been shown in the scientific literature to target deep, local tissue. For a product of this nature to be effective, a properly formulated topical will traverse the dermal microvasculature and avoid systemic uptake. The alcoholic carrier will thus distribute the yohimbine-hcl locally to deep tissues. Par Deus has written an extensive article with several scientific references showing how the carrier used in Lipoderm-Y is the most effective for this purpose: The Science of Topical Fatloss
   
   To quote Par's article, "the formulation must avoid uptake by the dermal microvasculature or it will merely be an expensive, inefficient version of a pill." Ulter, is there any science showing that the carrier utilized in Yohimburn will achieve this?
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
2. The 2nd reason behind the inclusion of alcohol in the formulation of Lipoderm-Y is for increased solubility. Flux is dependant on solubility, so the increase in solubility obtained from utilizing alcohol as a solvent, will give a proportional increase in penetration enhancement. Therefore, Lipoderm-Y will have a greater efficacy due to its increased solubility.

Obviously, I'm not Par, and he may have further reasons why he included alcohol in the formulation of Lipoderm-Y, but I believe these are the two primary reasons, which are both backed up by scientific literature.

[ulter]

The level of l-menthol used in Yohimburn DF is very high and easily facilitates the need for a solution the will traverse the dermal microvasculature. There is very little systemic uptake of yohimbine hcl with Yohimburn DF which is why most people who get headaches from oral yohimbine hcl don't get those headaches from Yohimburn DF.

It's been a while but from what I remember the carrier studies that Par Deus cites, and what you are calling "backed up by scientific literature" are for hormones and morphine, not Yohimbine HCL. Yohimburn DF has increased solubilty by having the yohimbine hcl micronized.
There is also some evidence that putting alcohol on an area stops the fat burning process and more evidence that it may disassociate the Yohimbine from the hcl. So why risk it?
There are way too many holes in the Lipoderm argument for it to be considered fact.
The bottom line is that Yohimburn DF works better, doesn't irritate your skin, and it's much more enjoyable to use.

[dsade]

If you are getting full dissolution into the carrier, then micronized doesn't mean anything. If you are looking at a suspension, then possibly - but then why bother as the penetration will suck.

As for the rest, you would have to post the evidence before I am convinced.

Again, if it is such a superior product, then why the need to "protect" it from criticism (or comparison to a similar product)? The personal argument just seems like a convenient excuse. Considering most of the positive feedback I have seen on IMPARTIAL boards (such as bodybuilding.com) has been for Lipoderm, and not Yohimburn...again, it just seems like sleazy marketing to me.

And you cant use sales figures as a quality gauge, as anyone that has bought Muscletech's Anotestin can attest to.

[dsade]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hreadid=163003

Here is a perfect example of exactly what I was talking about.

BTW, I didn't even realize that Yohimburn is over twice the price of Lipoderm.

[Streax]

Originally Posted by dsade

...again, it just seems like sleazy marketing to me.

sleezy marketing in the supplement industry?!?!?!? NEVER! How dare you suggest such a thing...

[ShadowJack]

Originally Posted by ulter

The level of l-menthol used in Yohimburn DF is very high and easily facilitates the need for a solution the will traverse the dermal microvasculature.

Do you have any scientific studies to back this statement up??

I have read several studies indicating that l-menthol is an effective penetration enhancer in the topical distribution of polar substances (which Y-hcl is), but none showing that l-menthol is an effective localized carrier to deep tissues:

J Pharm Sci. 1997 Dec;86(12):1369-73.

Effect of menthol and related terpenes on the percutaneous absorption of propranolol across excised hairless mouse skin.

Kunta JR, Goskonda VR, Brotherton HO, Khan MA, Reddy IK.

Division of Basic Pharmaceutical Sciences, Northeast Louisiana University, Monroe 71209, USA.

The potential use of terpenes/terpenoids as penetration enhancers in the transdermal delivery of propranolol hydrochloride (PL) was investigated. PL was chosen for the reasons of its extensive first-pass metabolism and short elimination half-life. The terpenes studied included L-menthol, (+)-limonene, (+/-)-linalool, and carvacrol at 1%, 5%, and 10% w/v concentrations. The diffusion of PL across excised hairless mouse skin was determined using side-by-side diffusion cells. Flux, permeability coefficient (Pm), and lag time (tL) were calculated. PL showed comparable lag times with menthol at all three concentration levels. At a 1% level of carvacrol, PL exhibited a 2.4- and 2.2-fold increase in lag time compared with 5 and 10% levels of enhancer, respectively. In the presence of limonene, PL had shown maximum lag time (between 3.0 and 3.3 h) at all three levels. In the case of linalool, the lag times for PL with 5 and 10% levels of enhancer were 7.0- and 5.2-fold less compared with 1% level. A significant (p < 0.05) concentration effect was observed only with linalool. Hydrogel-based patches were formulated with or without menthol as enhancer. Release profiles from the hydrogel formulations obeyed zero-order kinetics. The permeability of propranolol was significantly higher (p < 0.05) from the test patch than the control (no enhancer) patch across the mouse skin. The mechanism of permeation enhancement of menthol could involve its distribution preferentially into the intercellular spaces of stratum corneum and the possible reversible disruption of the intercellular lipid domain. The results suggest the potential use of menthol as effective penetration enhancer in the delivery of significant amounts of PL through skin.

PMID: 9423148

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by ulter

It's been a while but from what I remember the carrier studies that Par Deus cites, and what you are calling "backed up by scientific literature" are for hormones and morphine, not Yohimbine HCL.

This is true that none of them of them directly use Y-hcl, but one of them does involve the delivery of griseofulvin, which has similar physical properties (MW~353, logP~2.1) to yohimbine, so there is a lot of indirect data.

No one can rely on a direct clinical study to sell all of their products in the supplement industry, because the clinical data to support the efficacy is not there. It is the ability to take in vitro studies that are based on mechanism and couple that with an understanding of how things work that makes Avant Labs a company that markets their products with far more science than anyone else in the supplement industry.

Originally Posted by ulter

There is also some evidence that putting alcohol on an area stops the fat burning process and more evidence that it may disassociate the Yohimbine from the hcl. So why risk it?

Evidence please?

Originally Posted by ulter

There are way too many holes in the Lipoderm argument for it to be considered fact.

Well I think I started to explain this above. Further, even though Lipoderm-Y does not have any direct clinical data to support it, it is still marketed with scientific research to back up the product. Whereas I have yet to see any science posted on Yohimburn. That coupled with the fact that Yohimburn is over 2.5x the cost of Lipoderm-Y is the bottom line on the comparison between these two products.

[Par Deus]

Ulter, thank you for posting in this forum -- I do so love when you post in a forum where the evidence will not be deleted, but where to begin......

Elite -- Macro designed Yohimburn -- Macro profits from Yohimburn -- AF profits from Yohimburn -- Macro is a mod at Elite -- Macro deletes posts at Elite -- that was a bit too easy.

Menthol -- menthol works by occupying the hydroxyl groups in the stratum corneum, which normally love to bond to hydrophyllic compounds, such as YHCL -- the stratum corneum is superficial to the dermal miscrovasculature -- it helps with overall bioavailability (as I informed Macro -- before I started posting at Elite way back when, and before the existence of Yohimburn, the "guru" Macro was telling people they could just rub the powder on the skin -- and add some water, for better absorption) -- I have explained this to you guys about 20 times now -- it is bad enough that you put out the product with out having a clue on the science -- the fact that you still haven't a clue, in disturbing, to say the least.

Advertising -- The posts being deleted at Elite have, and had, nothing to do with advertising, or money for Elite -- at the same time this was happening, I was talking to George (the owner of Elite), about his interest in getting exclusive right to our line -- Ulter also had a link to AF, in his sig, in red font, about an inch tall -- in addition, numerous posts, which did not mention my product, or my company, were deleted -- they were simply posts pointing out instances where Macro had made statements of suposed scientific fact, which were grossly inaccurate -- Macro likes his guru status, and his Yohimburn profits, so information showing him not to know what he was talking about were, understandablly, not well received, thus eliminated.