glucosomine/chondroitin question

[rangers97]

does anyone know if g/c has the effect of actually "rebuilding joints", in whatever way it possibly can, or does it just act as a type of anti-inflammatory?

Example...I have elbow tendinitis. I try to do overhead triceps extensions and my elbow is sore afterwards. I take "extra" g/c than my normal daily supplementation. The pain subsides. Is this due to an anti-inflammatory "masking" of the pain, or is it working to actually repair any damaged "stuff" in my elbow?

Studies have shown that in some people a rebuilding occurs -- somewhat. Not to the level things used to be but better than they were. It usually takes 2 months of taking the supplements before any noticable change happens.

Extensions are brutal on the elbows.

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by IronMan

Extensions are brutal on the elbows.

That they are, I just find I need more tricep work than just "pressing" movements alone, and I am hopeful that by taking this supp regularly for the past few months that I will be able to do some decent weight on extensions to get that little extra my triceps might be lacking :

thanks for the info

[cursor]

Have you considered trying dips to build up your triceps?

When doing triceps extensions, are you using dumbbells or a bar?

[Maxgain]

Yes it is a cartilage building effect not anti-inflammatory you should get no effect straight away. Then again placebo will provide pain relief in about 50% people

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by cursor

Have you considered trying dips to build up your triceps?

When doing triceps extensions, are you using dumbbells or a bar?

Yes, I do them religiously, and quite well (BW+115 is my best set of 6 for dips ). I lumped them into "pressing" movements for tris with the close grip benches. I just find that adding in the extensions adds an extra dimension to your tris that the presses can't do, and it's unfortunate that I can't do the extensions that often and with that much weight.

I use a tricep bar or dbs to do the extensions. A straight bar for these is murder on my wrists, so that is out...

[CF-OC_gal]

My humble experience:

'The sports med doctor I saw about elbow tendonitis and ankle pain (reg. arthritis)said that there is no scientific study that proves that chondroitin (the expensive component) does build new joint material BUT that a lot of people experince a reduction or relief from pain when taking glucosamine daily. He also said that it takes about 2 months to benefit. This was exactly my experience with it ( It does dick- all for tendonitis but works well on early everyday arthritis )

Fortunately my triceps do fine without targeted training (hence off the hook for tendonitis). Elbow tendontitis responds well to wrist curls and other forearm strength training as well as keeping a neutral wrist postion.

[Maxgain]

"Chondroitin sulfate is a galactosaminoglucuronoglycan sulfate (GAGs) which has been effective in the treatment of osteoarthritis. Exogenously administered GAGs concentrate in cartilage where they can be used in the synthesis of new cartilaginous matrix. The chondroprotective action of chondroitin sulfate has been demonstrated in vitro. Chondroitin sulfate inhibits the effect of leukocyte elastase, which is found in high concentrations in the blood and synovial fluid of patients with rheumatic diseases. The enzyme can alter fundamental components of the cartilaginous matrix "


- Chondroitin is classified as a slow-acting symptom relieving drugs (SASRD) - A meta-analysis demonstrated that chondroitin improved pain and joint mobility, but had no effect on joint space narrowing in patients with knee or hip osteoarthritis - In most studies, chondroitin plus an analgesic or nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) demonstrated improvement in functional capacity, reduction of pain, reduction of NSAID or analgesic consumption, and tolerability

[Maxgain]

A meta-analysis demonstrated that glucosamine
improved pain, function, and joint mobility, and
though data are sparse, improved joint space narrow-
ing in patients with knee or hip osteoarthritis
- Multiple studies up to 3 years duration demonstrated reduction in pain scores and radiographic improvement in patients with knee osteoarthritis - Glucosamine may have potential as a disease modifying agent - A minimum duration of 4 weeks of glucosamine was administered in studies with positive outcomes - Long term trials are needed to fully assess the effectiveness of glucosamine in osteoarthritis - In various trials, patients reported positive and negative improvement in knee pain when treated with glucosamine

[CF-OC_gal]

Rangers - tendonitis is a tendon issue not a cartilage bone issue (although I guess it could be present at the same time).

You need to address the cause of the inflamation to the tendon and relieve the symptoms. Physiotherapy (massage, ultrasound and laser treatment), regular icing, avoiding or relearning new ways to do activity that caused it in the first place and anti inflamatories (asprin, tylenol etc) are usually the way it is treated.

In more extreme cases cortisone injections or surgery is used.

A sports med doctor and/ or physiotherapist assessment is the best place to start.

Recently there was a report that "knocked down" the belief that g/c was of any benefit at all indicating that the pain relief was probably a placebo effect. (I still take it) I'll see if I could dig that one up.

[CF-OC_gal]

Maxgain,

It looks like my experience with arthritis (ankle) and your posted reports are in agreement.

The chondroprotective action of chondroitin sulfate has been demonstrated in vitro.

That is in a test tube not people.

but had no effect on joint space narrowing in patients with knee or hip osteoarthritis

While my arthritis is not in the knee it is in the ankle, X-rays proved it is the space narrowing type - pain from bone hitting bone. There is inflamation sometimes. There's no hope for rebuilding joint cushioning with a pill. I'm sure that is what the sport doc was refering too. Just the facts so far.

Long term trials are needed to fully assess the effectiveness of glucosamine in osteoarthritis

Yes.

[Maxgain]

Originally Posted by Brat

While my arthritis is not in the knee it is in the ankle, X-rays proved it is the space narrowing type - pain from bone hitting bone. There is inflamation sometimes. There's no hope for rebuilding joint cushioning with a pill. I'm sure that is what the sport doc was refering too. Just the facts so far.

That was chrondroitin while rebuilding may be difficult further degeration has been shown to be prevented.

Glucosamine Significantly Reduces Knee Osteoarthritis

Glucosamine Sulfate Significantly Reduces Progression Of Knee Osteoarthritis Over 3 Years: A Large, Randomised, Placebo-Controlled, Double-Blind, Prospective Trial.

Article Summary:This study examined the use of glucosamine sulfate as a treatment for osteoarthritis over an extended period of 3 years. Participants were divided into two groups, one who received a placebo, and the other who received the 1500mg glucosamine sulfate daily. Feelings of pain associated with the osteoarthritis were measured, along with the joint space width of the joint involved in the osteoarthritis. Those who continued on the placebo treatment had continued joint space narrowing, while those taking the glucosamine sulfate had very little to no joint space narrowing over the 3 year period. Glucosamine sulfate is considered a safe, long term treatment for osteoarthritis that is capable of stopping the degenerative effects of arthritis.

Authors:
J Y Reginster, R Deroisy, I Paul, R L Lee, Y Henrotin, G Giacovelli, J Dacre, L C Rovati, C Gosset.

Source:
American College of Rheumatology 1999 Annual Meeting, Boston, MA Presentation Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 Arthritis & Rheumatism 1999;42(suppl)

[CF-OC_gal]

I guess that study wasn't recognized by my doc. He said buy it if I want to. With his patients some get relief from pain and some don't and that it takes about 2 months for the full effect to take place.

Like I said my pain is reduced (more tolerable) but not gone completely.

I read on the arthritis society site that exercise is good for arthritic joints.

[Maxgain]

Or he just has not come across it. I beleive glucosamine is very promising for such treatments